"Take off speed" for interplanetary transfers

A common issue:
You drop a bunch of SXX into orbit and they instantly snipe the commander. Or that nasty orbital fabber spam which instantly start spamming Anchors. Or the Commander-Astreus patrol exploit.

There have been multiple suggestions how to solve it, may it be artificial cooldowns for weapon systems or the possibility to intercept interplanetary transfers with Avengers, but both approaches come with weird implications.

There however is an entirely different and surprisingly easy solution:
"Simulate" the required speed to exit orbit of a planet and the breaking node upon entering orbit. That means to force orbital units to accelerate to top speed before moving from orbit to transfer and force orbital units to decelerate again upon transferring back to orbit.

This does not require any new mechanics, no new attributes or anything else. Everything required is already in the game.

Also note that this only affects the units which are currently troublesome, like SXX. (And possible future weapon platforms.)
Mobile units like the Avenger are less affected by this since they have very high natural acceleration/deceleration.

That also affects "hit & run" maneuvers. An Avenger only takes very little time to decelerate, fire and accelerate again. A SXX requires far more time for such an maneuver, you can't just send it in unprotected or it will be shot down by Avengers long before being able to fire, retreating which an SXX takes also quite a while, so you have to make sure that it is save to send it in.

In summary: Enforcing "take off" procedures for orbital units would only ensure that their movement characteristics are also properly applied in interplanetary gameplay.

There is no drag in space so no speed limit. I get that the acceleration would end when they reach the current travel speed.

It would extend the orbital layer a little bit of not being entirely a plane if the idea is for the accelerators and brakers to be able to be hit.

Physics aside the units have a top speed in their json files. I think that's the speed he's talking about.

Uh, the speed of light called, he wants a word with you.

I love physics... the beautiful thing about the speed of light is that it isn't actually a "speed" but rather a measurement of the "relativity of time" between two locations. The "speed of light" is when you are traveling so fast that your transit time is ZERO, however, to an outside observer it appears that you are traveling at 299,792,458 m/s because for every 299,792,458 meters time is "out of sync" between the two locations by 1 second.

Trippy stuff. It's also the reason nothing can ever reach the speed of light. If you double your speed you divide your travel time in half, if you double again you can half that, but there is no amount of doubling that will ever get your travel time down to zero.

This is also the reason passengers traveling at speeds near the speed of light experience less time elapsing... because they experience an amount of time equal to the duration of the voyage... if you get it near zero they don't experience the time. Again, to the outside observers we see them traveling at a fixed speed, but that has nothing to do with their acceleration, but rather the fact that time between two locations is not the same. "Now" here, and "Now" at the orbit of Neptune exist 4 hours apart from each other. Our "speed of light" travelers cannot arrive before they left, so they appear to take 4 hours to make the voyage, but when they arrive no time has passed at all, it's simply that "now" on neptune finally matches the moment they left on earth.

TL;DR, you can always double your speed, but you'll still never reach the "speed of light".

Then why does it take eight minutes for the light from the sun to travel to Earth?

It doesn't.... "now" at the sun is 8 minutes separated from "now" on earth. The light traveled instantly, but it can only exist at one place at one moment. "now" is relative to the location. That's why it's called "relativity" in the first place.

Nope, thats not what I'm talking about.

What I'm talking about is escape velocity. You can't go any faster without going hyperbolic (leaving orbit) and it's also the minimum speed you must reach if you wish to leave orbit.

The units are already accelerating to the "simulated"* escape velocity right now, but with one important difference:

Current behavior (BAD):

1. Switch from orbit to transfer
2. Accelerate from geosynchronous orbit to escape velocity
   
3. Perform transfer
4. Decelerate from escape velocity to geosynchronous orbit
   
5. Switch from transfer to orbit

Required behavior (GOOD):

1. Accelerate from geosynchronous orbit to escape velocity
   
2. Switch from orbit to transfer
3. Perform transfer
4. Switch from transfer to orbit
5. Decelerate from escape velocity to geosynchronous orbit

That's a huge difference, because units become invulnerable the second they switch from orbit to transfer. They are no longer valid targets once they have switched because only stuff inside an orbit is part of the combat simulation. Transfers happen in an entirely different simulation.

* It's not actually simulated as it doesn't follow any real physics. It looks credible (not plausible) given the desired scale of the game, though.

I've been mulling over a better way to explain this... here's a try...

Traveling through space is literally the same as traveling through time... if you sit still for 4 hours, you travel 4 hours into the future. If you travel 299,792,458 meters, you travel 1 second into the future PLUS the time it took you to travel 299,792,458 meters.

Lets say we build a spaceship that will launch you to the sun at 149,600,000 km per hour, you would expect your voyage to last exactly 1 hour... and it would, you would experience exactly 1 hour... however, you would arrive 1 hour and 8 minutes after you departed the earth. 1 hour for the travel time, and 8 minutes because you traveled 149,600,000 km, and for each 299,792,458 meters traveled you add 1 second to the time you arrive.

If you build a spaceship with magic infinite speed... you can make *any* voyage in ZERO time, and you use it to travel from here to Alpha centauri, you're voyage will be instant. You experience no change in time at all... however, you arrived 4 years in the future because you traveled 4 light years, and traveling in space is the same as traveling in time. We're back to "If you travel 299,792,458 meters, you travel 1 second into the future PLUS the time it took you to travel 299,792,458 meters." Even if your travel time is 0 you will arrive later than your started because you have to account for the time on the distance.

Lets look at the trip to Alpha Centauri another way (and lets assume it's EXACTLY 4 light years away, it simplifies the math a lot). Lets say we build a spaceship that will make the trip in 100 years even.

As stated before, the time traveled is "If you travel 299,792,458 meters, you travel 1 second into the future PLUS the time it took you to travel 299,792,458 meters." so we arrive 104 years after our departure even though we only experienced a 100 year voyage. That's traveling 47031050 Km per hour to the perspective of the traveler. If you double your energy expenditure you can make the trip in half the time by doubling your speed. You are now moving 94062100 Km per hour your trip will only take you 50 years, but to the outside observer it still takes 54 years. Too long a trip? Double your speed again, 188124200 Km per hour 25 years for you, 29 to the universe. Double it again, 376248401 Km per hour 12.5 years for you, 16.5 to the universe. I know doubling is dull, but just let me get a couple more, then it is interesting... doubles again, 752496803 Km per hour and you experience a meager 6.25 years but the universe observes 10.25. Finally double it a final time... 1504993607 Km per Hour. You experience a tiny 3.125 years, but the universe observes your voyage taking 7.125 years.

Now this is why it is interesting... you are traveling at 1504993607 Km per Hour. but the speed of light is only 1079252850 Km per hour. You are traveling 425740757 Km Per Hour FASTER than the observed speed of light?? but how??

The speed of light isn't a speed, it's a measurement of time relativity. If you travel 299,792,458 meters, you travel 1 second into the future PLUS the time it took you to travel 299,792,458 meters. We got our trip down to an observed 7.125 years... if an outside observer looks at your spaceship half way through that voyage they will see you halfway to the destination. If you kept on doubling your speed over and over you would keep dividing the time you experience in half each time... eventually you would be able to make the whole trip to Alpha centauri in just 1 second... but, you traveled 4.11992 x 10^13 meters, so that means you traveled 4 years into the future. For everyone else watching (who's not time traveling) your trip lasted 4 years 1 second. If they observe your voyage at 2 years and a half seconds they see you right in the middle. In their eyes you were traveling at damned near exactly the speed of light, 299,792,458 meters per second. For you things were MUCH MUCH faster... you traveled 4 light years in 1 second... and you really did, it's not a trick. You smashed the speed of light, but you didn't arrive in the past like you expected... you arrived 4 years and 1 second after you departed.

If you travel 299,792,458 meters, you travel 1 second into the future PLUS the time it took you to travel 299,792,458 meters. The speed of light is the distance of the voyage, divided by the time observed to have passed with the assumption that the traveler experienced Zero travel time. 299,792,458 meters per second + zero seconds. = 299,792,458 meters per second

TLDR: If you travel 299,792,458 meters, you travel 1 second into the future PLUS the time it took you to travel 299,792,458 meters.

Wow, thanks for making the effort to type all this out, it's quite interesting. Still hard to get my head around it, but interesting.

Anyways, you said somewhere that light travels instantaneously. And that the reason for us perceiving it having a speed is that it can't exist two locations at once.

So any current knowledge on why the number that is the speed of light that number? What limits this?

Sorry if this is very dumb, I have a basic understanding of physics only unfortunately.

No worries, explaining Relativity is one of my favorite things, for real, no joke.

Some of the misunderstanding may be bad phrasing on my part. It's not a simple topic and it's easy to misstep while explaining. Light travels "instantaneously" in the sense that a traveler at the speed of light has a voyage duration of ZERO, almost as if it simply disappeared and reappeared at the destination without stopping at all the places in between.

People often think you have to be going "near light speed" to have time distortion effects on you, but that's not accurate at all. The time experienced traveling from A to B is ALWAYS shorter for the traveler than for the time experienced by the observer. It's shorter by 1 second for each 299,792,458 meters you traveled, so if you only went a few hundred miles you're not going to shave off even a millionth of a second and no one really notices.

However light is subject to the same rule, the time you arrive is equal to your departure time, plus how long you spend traveling, plus 1 second for every 299,792,458 meters you traveled. Light is "instant", but if you traveled any distance at all you still arrived later than when you left. The outside observer will always witness your voyage taking a positive amount of time and no amount of doubling your speed can make you go so fast that your travel lasts zero time. You can get your time tiny, into billionths of seconds, but never to zero. Light travels in zero, but even at that speed because it moved a distance the outside observer has a positive time to examine. If the outside observer looks at your location at half the time elapsed they will see you halfway to the destination.

WHY the speed of light is what it is... I don't know WHY traveling 299,792,458 meters will move you 1 second into the future. The best explanation I can think of is that space and time are interchangeable and the ratio for exchange is one of the universal constants..


EDIT: Mathed around a little. You would have to travel around the equator of the earth roughly 7.48 times to move 1 extra second into the future. Given that under normal conditions it takes a few days to travel just once around the world that extra second of time travel is hardly noticeable.

Clocks on the ISS would need adjusting to keep time with the earth, but outside or orbital maneuvers and ultra-fast communication relativity has limited impact on our daily lives.

Wrong, from light perspective any distanse it travels is exacly zero, just as you said, but that means that light will travel exacly 4 light years, to universe travel time its going to be 4 years, to light itself is just 0

Now the faster than light part is where you are wrong, according to your mathematical model if you are going 2 times faster than light, that means you are experiencing exacly 0 travel time and fly 4 light years in just 2 years, that means you will arrive 2 years before you started your journey, and actualy ftl travel time its much more complex than that

Causality is going bat **** insane when going faster than light, just type in google why faster than light travel violates casuality


im not telling that FTL drive is impossible, im just telling that we are going to deal with time ****ery when we will build it, and its as complex and ridiculous as paradoxes and time travel can get

also, yes thread necromancy was a valid option, especialy that we need what @exterminans said

My understanding of physics are also kinda basic, slightly higher since i´m intereted in learning more physiccs(little bit of a physics geek), and Light traveling instantly would violate on it´s own frequency, how much it´s vibrating(waves/second), since instant travel to any location would mean 0 waves/second, even if you apply 1 second per 299,792,458 meters, since the frequency is relative to itself, and not to it´s travelling length.

I might be wrong thou.

It's not vibrating, but rotating. Huge difference, vibration would mean that amplitude and frequency could be scaled separately, with rotation only frequency can be scaled.

Instant travel is indeed impossible, also leads to a division by zero in a lot of relativistic formulas. But FTL is perfectly possible with the current understandings of physics. There can't be any wormholes in the spacetime, but stretching and compressing spacetime is possible. At least without breaking any fundamental laws of physic, not saying that it can actually be induced on purpose.

No, you grossly misunderstood my post. There is no such thing as true FTL because you will never arrive sooner than light would have. Light does NOT travel at a speed of 299,792,458 meters per second, but rather for every 299,792,458 meters you travel you arrive 1 second into the future from your departure time. If you want to arrive at Alpha centauri sooner than 4 years in the future you would have to travel backwards in time to get there that early.


The public idea that if you go FTL you travel back in time is bullshit. It doesn't work that way. You can double your speed for all infinity and get your travel time to near ZERO, but you will still never arrive in the past because moving through space is moving you into the future even if you don't experience any time lapse at all.

The except from my post about "but now you're moving faster than light" is simply addressing that misconception. You never went FTL, and you never time traveled. By your own measurements you are simply moving far faster than the perceived speed of light... but again, light doesn't have a "speed" at all. C is a measurement of time/space relativity that we CALL the speed of light because light has a travel duration of ZERO making it a perfect way to measure the time offset per distance.

Kind of basic understanding, as i said. BUT CLOSE ENOUGH I ALSO SAY!

Yeah but what about the Alcubierre drive (aka Warp drive)? It basically expands the space behind you and contracts space in front of you but keeping you in a bubble of normal space. Because the space in front of you is contracted, you travel a shorter distance than you would normally. How does the light speed works then? Is it still the same distance per 1 second thus making you go faster to outside observers because the distance travelled is shorter or does it not work that way?

I am sorry if I went wrong anywhere, my understanding of this kind of physics is rudimentary at best but I find it incredibly interesting nevertheless.

Yes you will, thats ENTIRELY of ftl causality problem

Thats exacly what you are going! by going FTL you are going BACK IN TIME

the thing is when you are going at the SPEED of LIGHT you are not experiencing ANY time of travel, its effectively instant, absolute zero, light experience EXACLY ZERO TIME, not 1 second, not tenth of a second, not infinetely small fraction of a second, BUT ZERO, and this is where your entire model falls apart, just as every single mathematical model in history trying to decipher light speed problem

To universe light speed is effectively infinite, its speed that information travels at, equal in every single frame of reference, a barrier that when is broken relativity falls apart and you are effectively disconected from casuality

and thats another bullshit, when you are flying close to the speed of light then time that you experienced can be just a second, then you can just add distance you traveled to it, but as i said everything flying at speed of light experience zero time from start to arrival, your model is correct if you are staying subliminal, its completely wrong when going luminal and superluminal

your understanding of speed of light is a misconception, doubling speed beyond speed of light its a total bullshit, the closest you can get its to double your thrust, you can go closer and closer to the speed of light but you will never reach it, just like in your unreachable instant time travel problem, instead in reality lightspeed is a barrier of infinity, thats what our in universe physics dictates

and stop with that 1 second in the future bullshit, its called a light second, and light is traveling a light second in exacly 1 SECOND (thats why its called a light second) that means when something is traveling double the speed of light its going to travel 1 light second in half of a second (especialy that subliminal speed attains its "zero travel time from traveling object perspective" as well) and any and all of your mathematical bullshit its not going to change that

besides i seriously dont have to explain you that, that information is literaly everywhere and you are clearly trying to say that both every mathematician, astrophysicist and entire ****ing universe is wrong

Let us not forget that light is particles(photons) that has a Mass, it is affected by the newly discovered Higgins Particle and is able to be dragged in by extreme gravity(black holes), and that there are ways to measure how fast a photon is travelling, although i guess that person on me pic(einstein)would approve FTL being backwards time travel aswell as light having a consistant speed of 299,792,458 meters per second. We know that light moves quicker than anything else, but that it has a matter which slows it down. Without that mass, i would approve the idea of light moving instantly from point A to B, but it will not be infinite traveling. Now why Light aint moving faster, or anything else, no one may know, these are all just Theorys, we only have a few facts that includes light speed, frequency(obsoletes infinite travel), and mass. Why mass cannot travel faster is bacause it will either travel backwards in time or add density to the particles, like reverse nuking. All approved by Einstein, but just theorys again.


And sorry if most of this is just bullshit .

Wow. Thread goes from discussing previously-suggested game mechanics to an in-depth discussion of physics.

Can I haz more?