Balance Changes Summary 69564

Garat posted the details of the balance changes in the build thread, but I wanted do provide a little more detail around the thinking that went in to them.

Basic Anti-Air turret
At the basic tier, we want static defenses and commanders to be relatively strong to prevent trivial rushing strategies and to compensate for the complete lack of mobility in static defenses. In particular, bombers were able to individually approach and wipe out an AA turret. To that end we are improving the effectiveness of basic anti-air.

Health: 500 -> 1000
Metal Cost: 300 -> 225
Weapon Range: 100 -> 150
Fixed an issue where AA turrets easily missed an incoming plane.


Dox
We wanted dox to be units that were basically cheap raiding units that could almost be thrown away.

Metal Cost: 90 -> 45

Vanguard
These units are meant to be beefy units that can be kited, but if they actually get in close range they are very strong. We like the way they feel, but they were just a little to easy to get and amass.

Metal Cost: 1200 -> 1500


Commanders
Early game, commanders are meant to be powerful fighting units that can stand up at least a while to a basic tier army. We like the feel of them against ground forces where they can uber cannon to deal with a substantial force, but they were more easily overwhelmed by basic air and naval forces. Even with the improvements to the AA turret, we want them to feel good but still vulnerable for any basic army.

New torpedo weapon
damage: 250
rate of fire: 2.0

New aa missle
damage: 200
splash damage: 200
rate of fire: 2.0
splash radius: 2

Additionally, many players had reached a point where the first part of the game was always a build order with four economy structures including three metal extractors and one energy plant with little to no variation. To make the initial decisions come earlier in the game, we have increased the economic generation of the commander to allow the first buildings to be storage or factories.

Metal generation: 10 -> 30
Energy generation: 1000 -> 3000

*69564

I kind of feel that this is a bit too much. It almost forces factory first. I understand it's first pass, so this is just some simple feedback. Who knows though, it could change-- I'm not the best

Not so. I might still build a mex before a factory so i can go Pgen -> 2nd fac

Still could a bit more options if they reduce it. But, as I said, we'll see! Though I have to admit that I haven't seen that build yet, in my various battles in the PTE (current build while it was in the PTE)

Was the T1 Tank permanently renamed?

If I can offer a couple opinions.

Now while I don't dislike the idea of a raid-specific unit, a simple cost decrease really isn't enough to make the change.
I know the tech for radar invisibility isn't there yet, but I hope once it is the dox gets that. Apart from that it'd also be nice if they got a movement speed increase, that way they can actually raid by getting in, killing a fabricator or two and getting out before the enemy even knows what's happened.

If you really want to make them harder to amass, a 300 metal increase is pretty much trivial. So might I suggest maybe a cost of say... 3500 per vanguard?
Also, to make it less viable to simply spam engineer assist on the factory it'd be nice if the factory buffer time was increased by maybe a second or two.


Just a few thoughts.


On a more positive note, however. I really love what you guys did with the T1 AA turret and commander weapons. Bomber snipes will be a lot less viable, which is absolutely great.

Honest question: from a gameplay perspective, what is interesting about not making it factory first? Whether you go energy or mex first, if you're forced to do that, how is it interesting? It doesn't change how you play the match, whereas bot vs tank vs air vs naval all have pretty significant difference in how your game plays.

Dox damage should also be a bit higher, to deal with the heavily-armored mexes that are in this balance.

The thing isn't that factory first isn't interesting, it is. People weren't bored with the fact that eco first was a strategy, they were bored because it was the only strategy.

This update made the beginning more interesting, yes. But it only turned the problem upside down. Now instead of eco first being the only strategy, factory first is the only strategy.

There's still no decision at the beginning. Especially since there's no reason to go bots first. Air first is really risky since the fabbers are so vulnerable (which isn't a bad thing, please don't see that as a bad thing) and naval is obviously very situational.

Am I saying that people will get bored of factory-first being the only strategy? Not necessarily. But what I AM saying is that more options is always more interesting.

Maybe not. Try using the dox for vision and light defense of the raiding party against tanks but back them up with bomb bots for raiding mexes.

I like the balance changes. I think the Commanders new weapons are slightly too powerful, and would prefer to see him have a laser that can shoot air and ground (like the many server balance mods) instead of the missile launcher. Now that buildings have tons of HP, could the 0.25 damage of the Uber cannon vs buildings be removed or changed please?

I'd like it if the Vanguard had a massive cannon stuck on the front and the animation changed, because it is waaaaay better than the Uber cannon against half the stuff in the game so doesn't really fit.

I'm hoping for some T2 air love soon. With T1 fighters being so common because it's by far the best mobile AA, I can't build Gunships because they get chased down and killed really easily, and T2 "bombers" are derpy.

EDIT: People saying the Dox and Vanguard are still useless/OP are silly. Try them out against a decent player before saying things like a +25% cost increase is "trivial". I think the dox could do with a slight RoF buff and the vanguard a little damage and RoF nerf (and a little recharge bar) though.

EDIT: One more thing! Bring back the Stinger!

And bots are still crap :C.
Other than that nice update!

I didn't mean scouting, just so you have something out there that can see better than bomb bots and can also do some shooting if necessary.

Or you could, you know, use bomb bots which are better for that....

Bomb bots have no vision or weapon range. At this point I should point out that I haven't tried it. I haven't spent enough time experimenting with these balance changes and neither have any of you.

but the dox are the raiding units, not the boom bots. If dox can't even raid, well then they are pointless... :/

Dox are the same, just lower cost. A few games still shows that even with around half the cost they still suck at everything.

how many times does the community have to tell Uber that bots flat out sucks?