T2 invalidates T1 STILL?

Big announcement this week. Release has been set internally but not shared with us yet.
Big problem, T2 is still going to render T1 obsolete if it is allowed to get on the field.

Why is it that after 6 months Uber still has ignored the cries of the community to keep T1 valid through all stages of the game?

Recent unit match up tests conducted by Meta pitted only T2 units against each other. The reasoning is obvious. The decision has been made that T1 is invalid against T2 units.

6 months of us yelling at the top of our lungs, "Don't do it!" and we are getting a big fat "We don't care" from uber.

I am frustrated, exasperated, despondent, and disappointed that we have been ignored for the most part on this issue.

True, Uber did move the T2 rush back so that T1 had more time to overwhelm and prevent T2 getting on the field, but then a few patches later the factory HP was increased so much that a groups of 15 T1 units cannot destroy a completed factory before the first unit rolls off and decimates the T1 units.

The core problem remains. If a player misses that window of opportunity the only remaining option is T2.

Some will say, "We can mod the balance however we like."
Ok, but for competitive play vanilla should be the flavor of choice which means that the competitive strategy is pigeon holed in to "Prevent T2 if you can but if you can't T2 is your only option."

I am very disappointed.

I honestly don't think that more complaints on this issue will change Uber's mind at this point. Playing Statera or RCBM is probably the best option to get this balance at the moment and up to 1.0. After that, who knows?

I hear you and After writing the original post I want to point out what I love about this game and what I feel has been done perfectly.

Balance between T1 and T2 Air: Great!
Balance between T1 and T2 Bots: Great!
everything else about the game is great.
The only short fall is in the T2 vehicles.

Well. Maybe not with T2 Bots. But I'm happy personally with the way T2 Air works.

I really don't understand why having powerful T2 units is a bad thing. If the T2 units are only specialists, then what is the point in spending the large investment to get them. If the T2 factory is cheap enough to make specialist advanced units balanced, then what is the point of even having it. Just stick them all in the same factory and be done with it. I want at least a little tech progression in this game. Stop trying to kill that.

The Vanguard in particular is supposed to be the counter to T1 tank spam. Why do people keep trying to beat the Vanguard with T1 tanks and then claim it is OP?

Because T1 tanks are the base form of a combat unit.

Neither tanks, nor dox, nor grenadiers are effective against vanguards.

And bombers are easily countered.

So unless we get a T1 leveller to counter vanguards, then what is a T1 player supposed to do when killing a single vanguard is a colossal task?

Never.

Make t2 not horribly expensive too? T1 are generalists, t2 excels greatly as something but lacks in other areas.

Let's think about this for a moment:
If metal by metal T2 offers the exact same performance as T1 (all else being equal), then there is no reason to ever bother investing in T2 for combat units.

Upgraded versions of the same unit types need to perform better (better =/= extremely OP) per cost, and this (all else still being equal) renders the T1 version obsolete. You can't have it every which way.

Currently, T2 has some unique unit types that offer different functionality, and thus complement T1, or allow you to do things you couldn't otherwise. With those, there is no conflict, and all units can still be viable. Even so, having at least some straight upgrades (Inferno->Vanguard, generic tank->Leveler) might be unavoidable, and for those, for optimal usage, it really is either or.

Now, T2 being too powerful, that's another issue entirely. For instance, I wish levelers wouldn't one-shot pelters as if they're AA towers made of paper (cf. TA's anti-air missile towers).

Actually when t2 was less efficient per cost people still built it. You have to think about this further, if a t2 tank is worth 10 separate t1 tanks (and let's say it's worth all that per metal value) then it's still worth it for one factor everyone forgets; 10 tanks will slowly die off, whilst one tank with the same hp loses no damage as it dies. This means you can have t2 be less efficient per metal yet still useful, this is how it was a while back, and I loved that build, it was the closest we could get to the balance I like. (Which is specializations)

That's a good point. This is where the "all else being equal" turns into a bit of a tautology. Indeed it's more complicated. Further, a single unit occupies less space (think trickle-in effect vs. bunched up), which in some situations can also be beneficial. I'm sure the list goes on.

I suppose one would have to include this as one of the metrics for how good a unit is per metal cost before making the comparison.

I think t1 air vs t2 air is pretty good. I think air as a whole is a little under powered in the PTE.

I'm fine with that. While i love using air to perform snipes and harass and the like, I really would prefer tank and bot battles to dominate the metagame. That way, more awesome is induced

Tech progression is good. however, it is not good if it renders an entire class of units obsolete.

You are forgetting vanguards are not the only op unit in T2 vehicles.
Levellers have longer reach, more damage, and splash damage. 1 leveler can kite countless T1 ground units.

Shellers are mobile, out range all T1 ground units, outrange T1 artillery, have a higher firing rate than a pelter, have splash damage, do several times more damage than a pelter, and do not require power to reload.

Now the vanguard. Nearly as many hp as a commander, can level all T1 structures with one hit, splash damage, twice the firing rate of a commander's uber cannon.

I suggest making T2 vehicles more focused on destroying bases or fortifications over individual units.

This would make t2 vehicles essential to making inroads into a well fortified base/position but using t2 vehicles on their own would simply get cleaned up by t1 units designed for fighting units.

Here's how it might work:

Levellers, vanguards, shellers all have limited vision, requiring t1 scouts or radar or orbital to be effective. They should all have a very slow turn rate and should all only shoot the way they are facing! This means they cannot kite short range t1 units and they cannot turn quickly to shoot units running around them or at them from all directions. suddenly t2 units can be easily flanked by faster more agile t1 units like Dox! Suddenly Dox are useful unless the t2 army is supported by its own t1 army to protect it from your opponents t1 flanking attacks.

t2 will still be useful as it'll be able to blast through base defences and fortified positions and they will still be supremely effective in numbers vs t1 and t2 ground units as long as they hit their enemy head on.

This is an excellent way to make T2 vehicles specialized. It's not perfect by any means - but it's better than what we have now. I'd vote for high alpha damage, low RoF.

There are still holes in the unit roster and I cant help to think if t2 could be combated with specialized t1 units.
instead of specializing T2, why not add a specialized set of T1 units?

something as simple as adding a tank destroyer to T1 would at least give you a chance against the heavy armor of T2 without giving either side (T1, T2) the battlefield advantage.

although the vanguard would be the baddest cat in town, the tank destroyer having longer range but lighter skin and good burst damage to a single target would give you a chance to wear down incoming T2 so other units like ants or bots could finish them off without losing your entire T1 army to a group of T2.

a T1 unit like this would not be op if balanced out properly, medium to heavy damage, more range than a ant, slow turning rate (due to a fixed gun, no turret) and a slower reload time. can be easily flanked (turn rate) and as always air is always an option.

just wanted to look at it a different way.

I like the direction both of the previous posts.

I wouldn't mind, since structure health is so huge, if t2 vehicles did a really low rate of fire but did so much overkill that the only way to fully utilize the damage is to hit a structure. Maybe then give vanguard's a structure of health but a weaker gun finally?

Really, it isn't the worse thing ever. A mod can and current 2 already do render t2 more in line with t1. Besides that, they will probably make the game balanced, which means if t2 is better than t1, I think they will not have any real balance way to do so until they weaken t2 at least a little bitty bit. If it is better, sure, just make it 2-3x better than t1 and not 10x better. Then it won't be such a huge landslide.

Because by definition, if they are specialist, you wouldn't be sinking a large amount of resources into them. Also, you still have progression, because the units are better, just only at some things, not most things, like they are now.

I am but a messenger, but I bring you bad news for your cause.

I don't agree with it, I don't like it... but there it is.

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Um... why?

The strongest message we can send to Scathis that we disagree with his decision is to play a mod which is fully supportive of multiple styles of play and strategy, and that the competitive scene abandons vanilla en-masse.