The Effects of T2 Units as Upgrades

Skip ahead to about 3:45 and watch.

T2 as upgrades has failed PA.

It's broken as all get out.

Granted, this was a slightly unusual map/scenario, but it does just go to show how broken T2 units as upgrades are.

Vanguards are unstoppable if your opponent or opponents do not have any damage output, T1 units for instance.

News at 11.

On a more serious note, you may or may not be correct, but this video doesn't have anything to do with that, because there was no appreciable defense. In fact, both sides rushed T2, without having much for T1 defense, one side was just more successful. I would say it would have been a sad thing if a single double laser turret was able to stop the vanguard advance, but then, there weren't even any completed laser turrets at all that I saw.

Yeah that other team didn't even try.

That is my entire point.

If I get to T2 first (and in this case, it was a 3v6), then the other team doesn't stand a chance.

Remember, it was a 3v6 on a super close quarters match. The 6 man team should have curb stomped the 3 man team.

But because the 3 man team got to T2 first, there was nothing the 6 man team could do.

Laser defense towers can't do squat against Vanguards.

Heck, a Commander can't even kill a single Vanguard.

So two teams using similar strategies win the game based on who executes their strategy more efficiently. Great. I think I'm missing your point here.

The real takeaway from this is that Uber's style of balance may be workable for 1v1s, FFAs, alliance games, and even possibly 2v2 army games, but in army games with more and more players on each team the balance gets broken really fast. This method of balancing just isn't workable in large army games.

I argue that Uber's balance does not work well at all in FFAs and team games. The advantage goes to the isolationist who doesn't attack and rushes to T2. PA is supposed to be about blowing up your opponent, not upgrading your tech.

This is Planetary Annihilation, not Supreme Commander 2.

I also argue that Uber's style of balance is extremely lacking in strategy and caters more towards memorization.

I'm gonna copy and paste over a post that I wrote over on this thread.

In short, the "strategy" of getting to T2 first isn't much of a strategy.

The strategy of using basic and specialized units to out maneuver your opponent is a much better

But this was a really really bad test.

All I can take away from this is that you fought against people who don't know how to play the game, and are somehow drawing conclusions from it.

I am drawing conclusions from the many many matches I have played and many many matches I have watched over the past year.

I didn't even play in this match.

This match just goes to show how stupid powerful Vanguards are. Nothing can stop them once they get in close – not even a Commander.

Right, I get your *position* on T2 units. What I don't get is this game. What are the advantages the team with three players had?

Well, lets see if I can list them:

1. Slightly more starting income due to having more commanders (IIRC)
2. More starting build power due to having more commanders
3. More starting DPS due to having more commanders. This is nice to have when defending against T1 land, or if they decided to commander rush.
4. More ability to multitask due to having more (less experienced?) players.

The team with more players (understandably) did not manage their eco as well as the team with less players. T2 units get rid of the DPS advantage a single commander or even perhaps two commanders may have (which this video does demonstrate). The team with more players managed their commanders sub-optimally while under attack. I think they could have survived the first set vanguards if they had grouped their commanders together, so I don't think this video even demonstrates that T2 units in small numbers fully manage to deal with the DPS advantage that 6 defending commanders have (and the vanguard is potentially the best unit for this). They might have even came back from that had their T2 factory not been placed on the edge of their base.

What this video does *not* do is demonstrate the premises of your position on T2 units. Not even in part, unfortunately. Igncom1 was a bit more succinct about this, but that's the long version.

I agree with the end conclusion anyway.

But not how you got there with this video.

It actually does because it emphasizes the stupidity of the power of T2 units.

I am well aware that it's not a perfect case study. It is an exaggerated scenario that is amplified by the broken nature of T2.

If this game had taken place on the Statera or Realm Balance Mod, this game would not have gone this way because rushing to build one unit to wipe out an entire base is not a valid strategy.

Fascinating.

I have the following simultaneous responses to this video and the discussion:

1. I agree that, on its own, this video doesn't necessarily demonstrate anything definitive except that Vanguards, under these specific circumstances, melt faces (that is, they can end the game on their own). That said...
   
2. This video suggests that we really ought to reevaluate T2 units:
   1. How cost-efficient should T2 be (in terms of DPS/cost, health/cost, DPS:health, splash damagePS, rangePS, range:footprint, etc.)?
   2. What role should T2 units play? Should they be:
      1. Upgrades (read: replacements) for T1 units?
         
      2. Supplementary units for T1 armies for use in combined-arms play?
      3. Specialists?
      4. None of the above?
3. I would love to see a more comprehensive series of videos comparing T1 to T2 units under specific circumstances
4. I would like to see a developer response to this video

Finally: Brian, can you elaborate on how and why this would not have happened in The Realm Balance Mod? Spell it out for me -- pretend that I'm as dumb as I actually am.

Mainly, T2 units are not super powerful. They are slightly more powerful, but they all have major drawbacks.

As a general rule, a group of 10 T2 units will lose against a group of 10 T1 units. As a general rule.

So rushing T2 doesn't work.

The backbone of every army at any stage of the game is T1 units. T2 units are very specialized and only good at specific things and not overly good solo.

I don't know that as a general rule, 10 T2 units are beaten by 10 T1. I do believe that 10000 metal in T2 units are beaten by 10000 metal in T1 units.

Indeed, when ever I do playtesting for the RCBM about 80-90% of the units I build are Ants and I have a pretty good record so far! ;p Admittedly I haven't done any testing lately but Nano and MadSci are very good at executing a concept and given how it was already working back then it can only really have gotten better.

Mike

So, if T2 units are only slightly more powerful and have major drawbacks... why make them? Not that I mind T1 units remaining viable (quite the contrary! that's rather the point), but it seems from your replies that T2 units in RCBM are either extremely situational or otherwise optional.

Is that the way we want it?

I wouldn't say T2 should be slightly more powerful.

Rather it should be quite a bit more powerful than T1 if used in specific ways.

They are situational and it is a bit of a fine line between them being too situational or just not needed but that's the point of patches! xD

Think of it as trying to place more importance on Composition than specific units, Vanguards are good, but they aren't so crazy that you automatically build them, you build them when they suit your purpose or goal.

It's also things like introducing more diversity even in "basic" things, for example prior to the Stinger being removed they both had exactly the same weapon. Why not make those different or even complimentary to further encourage "mixing and matching" and building compositions?

Obviously we're still a little limited by trying to make the RCBM add as little as possible to the game(new units that aren't strictly required are being saved for Add-on Mods) and just the fact that we are still struggling a little bit with getting models in-game but it's worth checking out if you haven't yet.

Mike

what......i think youl find a lot of examples of T1 rush these days as well....trust me, T2 rushing is much less viable then it used to be (in fact you had to rush T2 or lose)