Why is the T2 rush back in 68331?

We just fought the battle over T2 rush a couple months ago and Uber has already reversed it.

T2 is now possible at 7 minutes possibly less. In itself that is not too bad but on top of that the T2 units are now far more powerful than they used to be. All T2 vehicles are now sporting splash damage. Levelers have direct fire splash, Shellers have longer range, more damage per shot, a higher firing rate than Pelters, and they do not depend on energy to fire. Vanguards have mini uber cannons that are short range but lay waste to any T1 unit in the splash radius, they fire twice as fast as a Commander and they do not need energy to fire.

In short, T2 vehicles render T1 obsolete once in play. Again!

Come on, I really thought we had reached a good balance before the 68331 update. Are you going to make us fight this battle again?

What? Did you expect them to listen to their community?
Im very sure Scathis will be here soon saying '' So other then the pelter the powerlevel of the T2 is how you all want it''

I hope that this is just one of those "over corrections" and not the way they envision the balance to be at release.

As far as the pelter goes. No mobile unit should out range a fixed defensive structure. EVER
They have the advantage of mobility already. You can't give them range advantage as well because there is no way for the structure to close distance.
There should be a cost in mobile units when going up against defensive structures. The cost to take out a duel laser turret right now is pretty high unless using infernos and I think it is about right.

The sheller should not be able to hold off 10 times its number in T1 tanks without support from levelers or defensive structures like walls and/or turrets.

What t2 units are people rushing to build? Shellers? Vanguards? Maybe the problem is with these rather than the whole timing.

The strat is not widely used or at least I have only encountered one player so far using it. His entire build is one vehicle factory, 5 fabbers. then T2 vehicle and if not in immediate danger, such as when I was playing him, shellers. nothing but shellers and spinners all day long. He creeps radar coverage and just gobbles everything up.

It is a complete kill joy strat. Nothing can be done about it. No matter how many tanks go after it they can't even get insight of the shellers. The range is good enough they can sit outside radar range and rain fire in more than half way to a T1 radar. Once the kill zone is clear. just build another T1 radar and move the units forward.

It is the worst kind of artillery creep, because the units don't even have to be rebuilt closer to your opponent. The numbers continue to mass as the shellers advance.

If you are thinking air should be a counter you didn't read about the fact that the blob is both spinners and shellers. Bombers don't get a single bomb dropped.

Go T2 yourself, you say? Yeah, that is what the entire T2 rush balance discussion was about a few months ago. If the only way to compete is to use the same strat and just get it done faster there is no play diversity. It is just a race.

I am really shocked that Uber decided to move back in this direction when the balance before was good. And we all felt like we had been heard.

I think basic units are weird at the moment. Sometimes they do really well, especially basic air, sometimes they seem to be too weak to stop an advanced factory being build.

Im sure that with time the strategys are going to improve but at the moment the advanced units are powerfull and cheap and they can definitly win the game quickly for you if your enemy hasn't got their advanced. Weird thing is that vehicles can do this easily with vanguards alone while all the other advanced units are vulnerable without being suported with basic units.

An early air scout and then lots of harass should still shut this down long enough for your t1 tanks to roll in.

From what you are explaining I would build bomb bots, but that is more of a hard counter. Punishing him with harass and quicker expansion would help you build your t2 shortly after his but with better exonomy

It's just way too easy right now to sneak in just 3 or 4 vanguards and absolutely destroy a T1 base. It kind of ruins the feel of the game with such an OP unit.

The ideas behind the vanguard are good it just needs to be balanced. But they have created a unit that is unique which is great. I like the idea of splash damage and it makes vechs feel very different from other types. However, I completely agree they are a over powered at the moment. I think lowering there damage would help.

With the shellers I think they need to be tweaked where they can't hit moving targets as well. Probably same as the blue hawk. Right now you can basically kite with them if you have a couple and they can't really reach you that easily.

@scathis has a hard path right now. He is trying to balance the game and some of us are trying to give suggestion and help with this process. Some of us (on the forums not specifically this post) are just whining. And still others are just straight up hostile. I want to be supportive to him and the team at uber. Balance is very hard to do well. And it takes time and lots of mistakes and both bad and good ideas.

Unique? It's stealing the Commander's UberGun... the Vanguard is actually depreciating the uniqueness of the Commander!

That is a quick way to try out an idea, probably not a final solution. Personally I think they need to change the commander weapon effect and leave the vanguard.

So... just a visual change? nothing mechanical?

Excuse me while I leap about in abject apathy and non-hype for a moment.

...

That was over quicker than even I thought it would be.

Not necessarily. The tech to make new weapon types is fairly expensive in the time department. Thus my assumption is that to test out if something could be cool you take existing weapon tech and use it in new ways to see if it is worth developing a new one. Someone probably said, what would happen if we put the commander weapon on a tank, so that we don't just have two flame tanks. Or at least that is what I imagine happened. I'm sure it will change a few more times. I'm applauding the idea of not having just better versions of the same thing, but actual unit diversity. I think its the right direction, not the exact right solution or final form. I'm not suggesting to just copy weapon effects, I'm talking about trying out new things.

The blue hawk is a pretty cool new unit that we have, it is unique in its look and feel, but it looks to me like it is just using the catapult weapon effect, same with the T2 bomber. I'm ok with this because it helps with WYSIWYG, I know those are tactical missiles that can be shot down. In this case I think it is ok.

Back to the commander's weapon, since he is a unique piece, I would prefer for it to be a unique effect. I have never understood why it was blue effect. All the guns have a red color where the beam should come out which to me should be some kind of a red effect. I'd like to see the commander shoot a red beam (not a blue ball) that when impacts does a bit of AE.

I've been saying this meta game would return.

T2 units are just stupid powerful. They invalidate T1 units.

Also, with the 3x health increase, T2 units are the only way to effectively attack a base.

It seems that Uber is specifically building the game so that we're forced to go T2 and the first person to T2 has a huge advantage.

Scathis also believes that there aren't overpowered T2 units that can wipe out entire T1 armies. It's like he's never played with the Vanguard or Sheller.

We've all been saying it Brian. Uber just aren't listening.

Two words: Boom Bots.

Now I am going to teach you how to kill the creep, you get some boom bots, and you send it to their engineer, and you watch it go boom. If you can't do that, and they already have a mass of sheller/spinners advancing on your under developed base, you get about 30 of them, split into two groups, and thanks to their speed and the shellers high arch fire or something, you simply micro the **** out of your spider boom blow up kamikaze robots, and smash them into the opposing force. and thanks to the crappy health that the shellers were given, they should be all dead, if you did everything correctly.

T2 Rush really isnt in unless its on a big planet or a planet with good choke points to defend, as you can easily overwhelm with T1 vehicles. Its less so a T2 rush and more you not being able to respond to it. It used to be really bad because going T2 guaranteed a win, now its not so simple.

Gentlemen, I have said it before, and I will say it again. We all know that the T2-is-better-than-T1 is not popular. That ship has sailed. This drum has been banged so hard that it is now broken. Uber have picked their balance direction, and they are sticking with it.

If you have an issue with this direction, then here is what to do:

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I figured you should have done "Keep Calm and Play RCBM"! ;p

Mike