How can we make bots more useful?

This is the point that confuses me, why can you not simply build a air factory for fighters, vehicle factory for mobile AA or use fabbers to build static AA?

Why is starting with a factory dooming your entire game?

Two reasons.

If the enemy goes air first and gets off a bomber as its third, second, or even first unit, heck even fifth, then you can be facing incoming bombers before the air factory is finished.

But if you push a second factory really quickly, then you either stall your economy or delay your economy growth.

In those two scenarios, your opening starts are far from ideal. You get bombed and lose fabbers, which can mean a loss (especially in high level gameplay), or your economy stalls/is delayed, which can also mean a loss.

Why.....is the game being determined by the first 3 units you build?

That's.....either really sad or the maps are too small.

It's only bead because the Bots are missing key units and poorly balanced. Turns out, once you resolve those issues it's not a coin flip anymore! Who knew!

Mike

Building one factory and having only a few units determine the game is just plain old bad.

The game should not be determined by the first factory you build, and part of this issue is people playing on such small maps and complaining that it effects every part of the game.

If the 3rd unit you build can win you the game, then you are too close.

Like I said, the early game growth is exponential. If you fall behind by a minute or even less, especially in top tier play, your exponential growth takes a huge hit.

Because of that math, losing a fabber in the opening minute or two is a really big deal.

I agree with what you're saying in principle, but I don't see a way around this math.

Maybe severely reducing the number of metal spots on a planet... but then armies would be a lot smaller.

Yes, but that is only the way it is directly because bots are poorly handled right now. Bots are Bad because you need a second factory to have a viable but delayed start. If Bots were fixed with proper balancing an an AA option suddenly there isn't a problem anymore!

Mike

It's a universal rule in RTS games, (as well as a few other genres) that early game setbacks/bad starts are the most devastating.

It is really sad. Because nothing says those 3rd, 4th, or on units have to immediately run over and bomb the enemy. Even on super large maps I can find the enemy fairly quickly if I go air first, then send over my queued bombers to wreck havok. And by then I'll have enough to crush any AA towers built too.

I am aware, and it's not something we should be encouraging.

So we should render choices irrelevant? Because unless you remove build cost, time, and give the commander infinite build range as well as the ability to build anything, early game choices will always be vital.

You keep saying that, but I don't see any way to avoid this.

It's simple math.

Your economy grows at an exponential rate and any delays in the exponential growth sets you back considerably by comparison.

It is possible to recover from losing early fabricators, especially on larger maps, but it certainly is difficult.

For the love of god.....

Look, raiding and stuff is fine, im not arguing against it because quite frankly even if I didn't like it you MP people would never stop shoving your opinions down my throat because you believe that your opinions are worth more then mine.

I am arguing that if you are getting fucked over because bots don't have mobile AA and because you believe that the current bot balance will stay, and that static AA is worthless currently, and that building a air factory and building fighters is also impossible then maybe we should bloody well change some stuff.

Uber has declared that bots won't be having mobile AA, fine I am trying to make suggestions and ideas that work around what they want to make rather then making sarcastic comments about if they just stopped making the game they wont to make then the MP scene would be easier, ow and that you should try mods because they are the next coming of ******* Christ.

For the love of god I am just sick of people telling me that I am wrong when I am just trying to work with what I have, and the fact that I have even been told that most people here could give a flying **** about the game I like to play because your competitive one is more important and that I should just concede to you because MP is so much more important.

Quite frankly the 'every factory has a counter to everything' from zero-k is utter crap, all it does is allow a player to pick any flavour they like and allows them to do everything that every other factory else does, because having a force of more then one factory type is obviously to ******* painful to even bother with.


I'll admit I have been having a bad day, so bugger it, you win, bring back the AA bot and make the dox a different flavour of tank because obviously you seem to know better then I do. And to that extend why should I even bother, clearly you modders have figured everything out and have created the finished game before anybody else.

It's not fine that Uber has declared no AA bots. This isn't okay.

Please stop complaining that we are trying to balance a multiplayer game around multiplayer.

wtf dude.

Keep it in check or close the browser.

First off, I'm not even talking about bots or the Stinger at this point. I'm talking about the early exponential growth and how small slip ups can cause you to lose due to simple math.

Second, I'm agreeing with you. I even said so if you had read what I said.

I don't like how one small slip up during the opening minutes can determine the entire match. But that's just simple math and is present in every RTS game I've played.

But again. It's math.

It's not bots. It's not stingers. It's not bumblebees. It's not multiplayer or single player.

It's simple math. Your economic growth is exponential and one small delay at the beginning translates into rather large delays a few minutes down the line.

and I didn't say you were wrong.

But you felt the need to repeat yourself like I did.

Because you kept on saying something, and not acknowledging the source or even providing a solution.

You seemed to expect for there to be some sort of fix for something that has no fix.

The source is early rushing dictates the game, the solution is map size.

But you insist there is no fix, and that the game should be balanced redound knife fights in a closet.

You MP people are your own cause of grief.

Air is a special case. Unless you are talking about multi-planet spawns, all planets are 'small' to the air layer.