Why are Vanguards and Infernos so good?

Why don't we start with the first move people would make- attempt to reach critical mass with the stream itself by building LOTS of unit cannons. This isn't a gateway that's a little micro intensive to set up, these things are FAR removed from the battlefield. So why is a player only building x number of them? They should be building as many as they have combat units being produced. When you factor that into account, not being able to touch a dropdown until it drops down is asking for commander snipes. It also makes it possible for them to actually succeed against a fortified location just by doubling or tripling the stream coming in.

The next thing I'd point out is if the units could actually fight back while in transit. Bots could be more effective at fighting back while being dropped vs vehicles, especially the short ranged Vangaurd. Suddenly it makes more sense to use a mix of armies and not one single unit.

Nevertheless we actually seem to be on the same page as for what the unit cannon's usage should be, so eh.

I noticed this issue with the vanguards especially indeed... In a match vs the AI you don't have to do much more than making 20 Vanguards and sending them to their base, regardless of their force most of the time... The quicker you do it the more likely it will succeed in one attack.

Even if they mass bomb the crowd, they will only start doing that when you get close to the base.

Vanguards remind me a lot of the Devastators in Dune2000, except those were balanced : D

Meh with a bit of micro you can easily stay out of range of a vanguard, and the new higher HP buildings tank alot of damage.

Vanguards incoming- place ants behind a wall of energy plants.

Now if they have lots of vanguards you've got a problem- but given the cost of them then they've already won.

levellers are more of a problem imo than vanguards, mass T1 tanks sorts them out easily. Especially if supported by bombers.

Vanguards are a great example of why T2 needs to be nerfed.

They steamroll EVERYTHING. It's almost like a cheap mega unit.

Almost?

I know vangaurds seem a bit over powered. But I do like how they are fairly unique now with the way they fire and act. I am kind of hoping they add more weapon effects into the game. Even just coloring the vangaurd or the commander beam red would make it cooler. Personally I think the commander one should be red since most of the guns glow red already on the commanders.

why are the so good? caues thats how thay are made! OH! throws some baken on them and PBJ then they RELLY will taste good

Fired up a quick game which started going on 30 minutes against a hard computer. Saw enemy building advanced vehicle fac. Went nuts trying to take it down and failed, so I finally built my own. Started fighting vanguards with vanguards after BARELY taking down a single enemy vanguard. I couldn't complete the fight as I ran out of time but it was fun. But dang, I wish I could have done more with shellers as a counter.

they're not.

They are.

Mike

would you like to play a game? I'll use tanks you use infernos.

Nah, I'm more comfortable with forum discussions.

Mike

then take a peek at the units range

So I'm assuming then that you feel the lack of range is enough to balance the rest of it's stats?

Mike

If you have, say, an ant (a balanced unit in range, DPS, and health, all relatively equal). And you want to make a cool flame tank unit that is balanced, what do you do?
You adjust the stats up and down, like levers.

Up the DPS, nerf the range. Balanced, right? Theoretically, yes. Tactically, they suck. Just as vulnerable as a regular tank, and really only useful when you're inside a base - so an airdrop unit only, essentially. Essentially useless to higher level play, except for T2 air rushes for transports.

So, it needs a new addition. Let's raise the speed and lower the armor by a bit. Suddenly it has the boom-bot problem - you need a bunch to tank damage to do any good. Again, kinda weird synergy, it COULD definitely work as a standalone raider - but maybe not for regular use unless perfectly balanced with other units.

What about the other spectrum? Drop speed, raise armor. Now this could be an interesting strategic decision: slower armies, but tankier frontline units for breaking bases. Basically, a sledgehammer. Useful, right? Strategic decision to go after bases, not kite armies.

Our current situation is where Uber raised armor significantly, but did not drop speed in a significant manner. The result is HOLY CRAP THATS A VANGUARD RUN FOR YOUR LIFE. Oh wait...WE CAN'T RUN.

armor?

Armor can be taken for health

ehh, it it's too slow you might as well not bother building them, as they can't even get to the battlefield to fight.

Just reduce it's weapon power and it should be good to go, like less then the inferno levels.

So, reduce the DPS.....what are we increasing in return? Speed?

Ok then. So we have an average DPS tank with normal speed, low range, and high armor.

You'd use it as a frontline tank unit still - it just wouldn't be able to break bases. I can see that being quite useful.....but also useless.

Considering that it alreadys has a decrease in speed and an inclrese in HP my a massive amount, you don't need to increace anything.

The vanguard isn't a base breaker, it's designed to take damage for others, namely the real damage dealers.