About build power and combat fabbers.

Dear Uber. I love this game and i love you. If this was a joke thread i would talk about how funny it is to give us decoy commanders but hidden under the veil of combat fabbers, much like we have unit cannon and scampers. But the jokes will have to wait. Too Soon

If i understand and remember what i've heard about fabbers, combat fabbers, build power and balance correctly, the argument for giving combat fabbers 6x the build power of a regular fabber and 3x the build power of a commander at even higher energy efficiency was that the combat fabber needs to be made useful in the field, it wasn't preforming it's desired / intended role.

The problem is that with these changes only someone with no sense of the games economy at all would use them as combat fabbers since they are the most cost effective and efficient builders in the game. You've made the combat fabber into a crucial builder now, i can't risk sending it to the field and completely draining my economy by auto-repairing some units. That build power has to be put to good use, and that means building economy and factories not wasting my precious metal prolonging some infernos inevitable fate. Don't get me wrong, repairing fighting units can be useful at times, but it's far too situational and specific for me to waste time, micro and most importantly of all, economy, on doing so. Why not just build more stuff of a different type instead? If i can't knock down your defenses, i'm gonna switch to nukes, air, t2, orbital or something else besides tanks that require repairs to be useful. I want perfect control over what i'm spending my economy on, and combat fabbers does not allow for that. The fact that they auto-repair is half the reason they are broken as the games most efficient builders.

Ugh. Broken is a strong word and it is thrown a lot here in there forums. I really hope i don't come of like some peter crying wolf but i do think this is a very serious matter. Unit balance is one thing but economy balance is a far more central and delicate matter. If grenadiers are "broken OP" you could just lower a turn rate or reduce accuracy or something.

But how much resources do i have to put to use and what tools are there to do so? How well do you spend your metal? Was it put to good use? This is the core of the game.

With the combat fabber as it stands in the current build, my most useful builder won't even sort as a fabber when i try to select it but it will run of with my fighting units if i use the good ol' drag box selection thingy (i'm sorry i don't know the proper word for this but i hope you all understand what i mean). To catch and use them properly as the absolutely fantastic builders that they are now, i need to rebind hotkeys to manage them.

It seems that somehow you are aware of this problem by making them cost 720 metal to build, i.e. along the lines of building a new factory rather than a new unit. This almost make it like combat fabbers are the new t2, and t2 is t3, at least as far as build power goes. T2 combat fabbers give me nightmares. Little black holes on four legs eating all my economy *shivers*


Summary:
At the very core of this game is economy management.

Combat fabbers are now one of the most useful units in the game at the same time as they are very hard to use for what they are good at.

They are one of the games most valuable units because both by build power and by metal / energy efficiency they out-preform any other factory or fabrication unit.

To have a fabber that does not even behave like a regular fabber unit as the most powerful one is a mistake.

To add an "extra tier" with a combat fabber being as expensive as a factory and build better than anything is counter intuitive and makes for very strange game play.

Uber has talked about Combat fabbers in some of the recent livestreams. They're aware of their... quirks.

They're tossing around ideas like making it so they can't assist in building, only repair. Or reducing their effectiveness. Or something.

Changes are coming to combat fabbers, we just don't know what they will be.

Right now Uber is focusing on balancing economy and "pacing" right now. Things like unit stats and combat fabbers and whatnot aren't their priority.

Since Combat Fabbers are intended to have the role of repairing units under fire, I'm hesitant to reduce their effectiveness too much. They probably should be reduced since 5 combat fabbers and a few infernos can break pretty much any defensive line that does not deal AOE. So I think they shouldn't assist in construction and should have a slight reduction in their effectiveness.

I discussed this issue with burntcustard and metabolical when we were testing this in the PTE. Uber are aware of the issue. The idea of leaving them only able to repair units was put forwards, perhaps with some adjustment to cost.

In that case i'm surprised it's in a live build. In PTE you can toss around whatever, but this is live.

Its probably going to be a good harass-target so im not sure if its a good or a bad thing atm.

This. Nothing you thought you heard from Uber as you stated in the OP was correct. Uber MIGHT have tested them as efficient builders, and I thought that at first and thought it was cool but not THAT much more efficient that bot fabbers please. However, I think they buffed them and didn't consider build efficiency (since they can't build just assist). So they can remove their assist ability is what I last heard them say directly.

However, hear me out, to address your arguement anyway, I would not mind combat fabbers being more efficient than regular fabbers, regular fabbers being more expensive to build, and obviously combat fabbers to not nearly be as efficient as the commander. The reason, is combat fabbers could be assistants and structure fabbers can be blueprint specific. That leaves more room in sniping the blueprint fabbers to prevent buildings from going up. That might be a stretch though, I don't mind combat fabbers being unable to assist either.

http://www.pa-mods.com/article.php?article=v64758-balance_combat_fabber_analysis

They aren't the most efficient fabricators in the game (t2 fabbers take that prize), but they are the cheapest outlay to get a certain amount of metal production throughput. My opinion of them and how to fix them by tweaking, if they need it, is here: https://forums.uberent.com/threads/pte-stream-64758-balance.58961/page-4#post-920358

As it currently stands, you need the combat fabber roughly as it is to have some sort of t1 answer to t2 fabs and fabbers being crazily energy efficient. This is how I think it plays out as it stands, and if the combat fabbers were removed with no other changes:

With combat fabbers
Expand heavily + t1 spam -> t2 when expansion options dwindle -> t2 eco + t2 units supporting t1

Without combat fabbers
Expand enough to rush t2 -> rush t2 -> Expand heavily + t1 spam -> t2 eco + t2 units supporting t1 when expansion options dwindle

The version with combat fabbers makes a lot more sense to me.

You have a good point. With the larger gap between t1 and t2 there is room for a step on the way up so to speak. But with t1 being relatively strong i am very curious about the future role of t2 as people keep playing and learning this build. Not as in no body will build t2 but more along the lines of how they will use it. Only for eco? Vanguard drops? T2 combat fabbers? It a fun patch this since the changes are quite big.

edit:

Though i stand corrected about which fabber is the most efficient, my points regarding t1 build power balance still stands. In my eyes it makes no sense to have combat fabbers be the best fabbers. Personally i'd rather see the "combat fabbing" role assigned to regular fabbers somehow rather than have a whole separate unit that has to be squeezed in to somewhere in the middle between things because economy balance is going through phases. Any fabber should be able to repair anything, why do i need special fabbers for units? Something like a guard or assist command could cover that.

@shootall
If t2 is used, it will only be for t2 mex to pump out more t1 units. t2 units are crazy inefficient metal to power.

@trialq
t2 factories being the most energy efficient doesn't mean combat fabbers are required to be as they are. That factory efficiency means nothing if it can't be channeled into metal efficient t1 units. There is no safe transition to t2. Once you are saturated on t1, so is your opponent. The t1 armies are huge, and you cannot under any circumstance afford to trade significant t1 production for t2 production.

How was it not obvious that combat fabbers are directly related to economy and pacing in a humungous way? Why are they not a 'priority'? And how did it get into the live build?

Here is the relationship:
repairing infernos is basically the same as building and teleporting them back to where the dead inferno was. They need a huge energy efficiency nerf and not a bandaid restriction to repair only.

*I understand that the previous build needed a good shake up. But what we have now is just bonkers. You can't even test it to provide useful constructive feedback. So much shooting in the dark.

By that argument, everything effects pacing and economy so everything should be a priority. And then if everything is a priority, nothing is a priority.

Put down your pitchfork and breathe. The game isn't complete.

They need played with the numbers in general. They needed a mild buff before. They got too big a buff. They honestly don't need build restriction. It might or might not be best to give them one.

They arent that big a deal though in the build push, overexagerated for sure.

Not for t2 factory efficiency so much, but for t2 fabber efficiency yes (I said both because combat fabbers can assist structure and unit production, making the efficiency of both in t1 closer to that of t2). Without combat fabbers, you'd rush t2 to get t2 fabbers to assist everything.

what? Everything affects pacing and economy. Some things more than others. Big impacts = bigger priority. super efficient fabbers = ...big impact

First the experimental build is "just experimental", and now the live build "isn't complete". Why don't you stop with this unconstructive silly talk and focus on providing accurate and truthful feedback about the state of the game? Or atleast stop impeding others who are trying to do so. Less excuses, more progress.

I sincerely hope to god they don't just slap a repair restriction on it and call it a day, as I've already explained why.

@trialq
Well the t2 fabbers are just as wonked out as the combat fabbers. Like you said, they're used to help build even more t1 spam.

I completely agree that everything effects everything. I don't think it is possible to balance only one aspect of the game at a time. I even wrote a very long post on that exact topic on another thread.

I was simply telling you what Uber is doing.

"and now the live build isn't complete" ? Uh... yeah. The entire game isn't complete. It's early access for a reason. You can't expect everything in PA to be balanced at this stage in the development process.

And what are you talking about "accurate and truthful" feedback? The game isn't complete. That's 100% accurate and truthful. The live build isn't a complete and balanced game.

I just lost a match badly because I didn't know about how incredibly broken combat fabbers were.

I mean god damn, that's insane.

i played more games now and i notice, even tough they are excellent targets, i still make combat fabricators every single game.

I decided to play the live today with a few 1v1s on a small moon.

The first game went as planned. I was playing a newbie and managed to out produce him and ultimately beat him in under 10 min.

The second game was when I met the combat fabber. I did the same build as the first but some how my foe got a mass amount of tanks before I had my third factory up. I reviewed the replay and saw how he/she used the combat fabber to produce eco, units, and factories at an alarming rate. I honestly did not expect this to be in the live build so I decided to teach myself how to use them vs the AI.

After 2 AI games I felt that I had mastered how to use them in a efficient manner without destroying my economy, and decided to "demonstrate" this on a few people playing 1v1s. all the games where the foe did not use the combat fabber ended in under 11 min with their base being decimated with mass amounts of tanks and bots.

The last game was the most shocking. I started the game then PA crashed. I reconnected, built my combat fabbers, noticed that the fog of war was not working, no problem I have radar so nothing can sneak up on my anyway, and steamrolled the foes base without issue and no damage to mine. By that time (under 9 min) I had clamed the entire back side of the moon with only one normal fabber and one combat fabber.

This is seriously broken....

Was that me? You left before I asked what made you give up. I probably had an advantage but I wasn't certain yet.

If it's any comfort I got totally rolled in the first few minutes while trying a similar build in an earlier game. Early raids and bombers really throw it off.

I do like some things about the CF - I need less energy plants and can make more meaningful builds like factories and units. Things build faster without having a blob of fabbers, and I tend to have fewer groups of fabbers, which is easier to manage (but also more concentrated risk) It is a bit of a gamble, as the earlier game proved, because the CF is expensive and can't start things by itself. Having two types of fabbers (starter and efficient) opens up some more strategic decisions.

What we have now certainly needs adjustment, but I've really been enjoying the efficient builds and new options.

Easier to manage when if you drag a selection box or press the hotkey that selects all combat units all of your fabbers get selected to and any orders you give to them will result in all of your fabbers going off with the combat force to get killed by scampers or grenadiers? No way.

idk it may or may not have been you, but I do know that at the point I deleted the com it was a certain defeat.

I actually really like the idea of the CF just being more efficient fabber that can't start things as you said. However right now it is just too good. It does add some tactical decisions you have to make regarding risk & reword. As you said what it really needs now is some adjustment.