Hi, I've noted in the latest PTE build the t1 metal extractor output is back at 7. I actually preferred the lower metal output and I tend to play on planets with minimal metal density. The reason I personally like this is that it changes the game from the current 'metal map' style play (which focuses almost entirely on efficiency of your build order and speed) to a more tactical play making use of very little. With much lower metal it is actually a good idea to leave factory idle at points where you need to divert metal into something else (e.g. if you need orbital, or if you want to get that defence turret up quick). Timing in relation to economy was a big part of TA and PA can have this as well. The output of the metal extractors only really determines the *minimum* metal we will be given- as with the metal sliders you can increase the number of metal spots to create a metal rich map. I think the minimum with 7 output t1 metal extractors is still a bit high. Perhaps as a compromise the output per spot can be adjusted (I think that t2 should be determined as a multiple of T1 and thus scale as well, e.g. T2 metal extractors produce 3 x t1). A slider should be provided to scale metal spot output from 1 to 10 (in increments of 1), as that would give us the choice to create maps with different conditions. It would be nice if this could be done per planet (just like the metal frequency and distribution sliders) as that would allow the creation of 'king of the hill' type scenarios where everyone starts with very little and expands towards the high outputs. To sum up: What I'm asking for is the ability to create much lower metal maps than is currently possible, rather than to prevent people playing on high metal maps.
I think it would be a good game option to expose metal collection (t1 = blank, set blank to 5 or 7 or 20, t2 = blank, set blank to 7 or 14 or 36), as well as metal density and metal clumps sliders. However, probably will be a release thing for hosts via mods perhaps. I personally like t1 being 7 metal, and t2 being little more than t1 metal, and t2 being expensive like. As I play PTE they aren't perfect but I often spend all my metal a lot, there is no point where you can have more metal than you can use or 50 roaming fabbers instabuilding projects. I also prefer to lower metal generally, and specifically I like to increase metal but lower cluster, so they are more spead out and less based on clusters. I played a metal-spawn game once, I got crushed early because someone pretty much jumped my second spawn metal from their very first start off, but I liked the idea of everyone having limited spawning metal to work with, pretty pretty balanced and pretty intense fighting all game wide.
Yeah I'm not saying its terrible at 7- it's just have you tried deliberately starving yourself of metal (like *really* starving yourself) and seeing how it plays? Allot of my favourite maps in TA had only 3 or 4 metal spots each and it makes for a very cagey tactical game. I'm not saying I want every map to be like that- just the option to create one. Overall I like the direction the PTE is taking- the units being stronger is excellent and the whole T1 game is more fun.
I agree, 5 metal output was fun. Expanding felt much more important, your units felt more valuable and reclaiming trees and even sometime wreckage felt worth it (That does it still maybe now, but much less so). I also understand they put it back up though since less metal means smaller less epic armies. There should probably be a slider for metal output or something like that since 1 metal output sounds almost impossible to play with( A bit pointless). I think this (and many other options for tweaking metal availability) should be in the core game and not modded since with different metal values come different playstyles = less repetitive game = better game.
5 metal per spawn point was low enough... but it isn't 5... Also I've noted that on minimum metal sliders you get allot more metal than 1 point per spawn unless I'm doing something wrong?
When I tested reducing the metal sliders to the lowest on the PTE, I seemed to always get 5 metal spots at every spawn with nothing in-between. I *shrug*
That's what I was referring to- 5 spots at 7 metal is 35 metal at the spawn point. Reducing the T1 output to 5 reduces that to 25 which is much harder to play with. I would just like to find a way to get some really low metal planets to play on- one or 2 metal spots at the start point only kinda thing. Please note this is a fringe case I'm talking about- obviously we don't want all games to be like that (and the default should be much higher) however it would be nice to be able to if you want. Most of the preferred TA and Spring competitive maps are fairly light on metal- as it requires in depth knowledge about each unit and how best to use them. The kinda of games where a single bomber, or a well placed scout can be the difference between a win and a loss. I know PA is going large scale, and I love that side of it, I just think that from my experimentation PA actually has plenty of depth for the other end of the scale as well.
TA's matel spots had various density...so some would give you 2 metal per tick, others would give you 1.5, 1.2 or 0.5. also you could build on a non metal spot for 0.2 income. Obviously the rates would need to be adjusted for PA, but I always felt that was a good system. Generally it resulted in 1 rich metal node sprinkled with less rich ones in the area...it made tactical decisions very important.
It did make lava worlds fun when the very earth had 0.5 metal from extractors. It made space management very important, especially considering how they were made of glass.
35 metal at the spawn point is 1 commander constantly fabricating, and 1 vehicle factory constantly fabricating. I'm fine with that.
Well the actual metal amount is less important then making sure the player has enough to at least do that.
I disagree- most TA maps you *only* had enough metal to run 1 factory + a tiny bit and it played fine. Having enough metal to keep your first factory and your commander going constantly is rather high. In TA, you're starting metal was what purchased the first factory (and loosing that first factory was a big blow as the metal income wasn't high enough to simply rebuild it, you would have to save up). Building other structures like power generators and such was also something that had to be considered. Commander expansion was a thing as a result of this- you didn't have enough metal for your com to stand in you're base and pump out resource structures- you HAD to go and get metal and an efficient way to do that when metal constrained is to move forward with your commander. This leads to some interesting confrontations. I think it's important that this style of play is made accessible in PA as well, and all that's required is to allow the metal production or metal density to be dropped sufficiently. I reiterate that I don't want to remove the 35 metal per spawn starting option- I just want to expand the options available.
I loved the 5 metal per extractor change and don't know why it was taken back. Low metal availability leads to confrontation and creates interesting early game play aswell as fight for map control the entire game. This is part of the reason I hate the totally over the top T2 economy jump.
I agree. I feel that the game is easier to handle when T1 and T2 eco are closer, and when stepping up into T2 isn't such a big investment, either a big reward. I would really like to see a PTE where T2 Mex aren't able to generate more metal, but instead bring into the play some specialized capabilities, like radar coverage, laser auto defense, cloaking device (for example invisible to air), and the alike. It would be interesting to see how the game play changes, without going for the obvious dichotomy "more tech => more metal".
I like "some" metal increase, and definitely if like PTE if it is with a high entry cost so it doesn't pay off in the short run and actually costs you economy better spent elsewhere in the shortterm. But, I would say the best quality of mexes besides increased income, and it can't be as expensive as it is in pte for sure but possibly as expensive as in stable, is the health. The health makes it stand up to standard attacks, and if a t1 raiding army does kill 1, if it is a field, it heavily occupies their time to focus fire on them while they could scrape off all 5 mexes near instantly even faster than it takes to break 1 t2 mex. The health is a pretty big asset.
Vanguard and inferno are steady-high dps for short range. They and bomb bots have a higher apathy for that sort of task. Even shellers and gil-e have to stop to take 2 salvo of shots at these t2 mex for their high health, and they serverely need a dps decrease anyway. Levelers make faster work of them than other tanks, but their job to increase pocket-dps for the tank mass makes their use building-killing as a hybrid with army-killing while they don't kill buildings as well as vanguards its understandable since they have range. I think it either eats up a whole lot more bombers, or bombers have to make multiple runs, and thus if AA is present you get a lot more kills on bombers for the mex. Their health is decent, the few times it don't help I feel is the game failing you. The only other thing that should rip it apart timelessly should pretty much be a holkins, those probably should break one in 2 hits, it is artillery after all.
