What if Vanguards did zero damage?

By removing the gun it would have a different role of course.

It would no longer be a unit to cut through walls – walls are broken and need to be changed anyways.

The Vanguard would be the role of a scout, portable radar, and damage soaker. So players would have the option of not being in combat to be used as a cheap and easy radar, or it could be on the front lines soaking up damage.

Player's choice.

Walls have good HP for their cost.

I wouldn't say they are broken, just powerful.

I do not think that it could work as a damage sponge if the enemy can just ignore it and focus on different targets. If the autofocus of units still keeps targeting Vanguards first you would have to heavily micro every encounter to not waste massive amounts of potential damage. If the autofocus of units does NOT target the vanguards unless there are no other targets around It would just sit there until everything else dies and it becomes a target basically making it a waste of space and metal.

I would also like there to be an advanced scout but as a seperate unit and not as a built in feature of the Vanguard.

I think the best way to deal with the Vanguard issue is to lower its damage heavily but make the flamethrower deal damage in a 90° angle in front of it. That way you can still burn down walls rather quickly with more Vanguards, but dropping one Vanguard next to a Commander would not be an instant win anymore.

Let me rephrase that: Show value should never be the deciding factor.
I can come up with two instances with increased show value right this instant that would wreck balance:

1. Remove the anti-nuke
2. Cut down Halley cost by a factor of 20

That would immediately lead to more matches highlighting those things that actually look awesome and work well in the engine. Would it be a blast to watch? Sure, puns notwithstanding. Would it be good for the game? Highly un-bloody-likely if you would pardon my French.

That said, your conclusion is spot on, i.e. more things could use a bit more show value. Longer half-life times for units would be an easy way to increase the show value of armies for instance. There is so much more than dropping Vanquishers, I mean Vanguards on top of people's heads to this game.

Plasma is really hot. As in, several thousand degrees Celsius. That armour would have to be pretty thick, and even then it's like putting a blow-torch against icecream.

I could dig a vanguard that does no damage whatsoever. It is basically a moving structure, a hybrid wall radar. That is fairly useful a role. walls are overpowered, moving ones with radar would be too. Rather it be radar than vision I guess.

*shrugs* I feel like I might be the only person who like walls.

I love walls. However, what is maybe a second or two of build time, to prevent them from infinitely being repaired? Because atm, if an ant shoots at one for a few seconds, and a combat fabber repairs it, it instantly repairs, because it repairs at build cost, and it built instantly, so it repairs instantly.

You need to somehow balance cost with health, in a way to at least allow a few ants to kill it while being repaired.

However, grenadiers coming soon, are a good role to balance walls with a counter to them. That coupled with some sort of balanced build time, definitely makes them balanced. Then, let them soak up 3 times the damage of a regular turret, they are an excellent defense structure.

Sadly, vanguards suffer same issue as walls. Cheaper cost to higher health, means repair heals double what it takes in damage. Yet, suffers the same other issues as well. Reclaiming them with fabrication tools, damages faster than any weapon, except vanguards can still survive some reclaim damage since they took a few seconds to build in the first place, while walls were built instantly so they are reclaimed the second they are clicked.

It is a wierd mechanic, worthy of staying in, as long as it is adjusted, because instantly producing results with a fab gun is exploitable in both directions, while to the extend it works on a vanguard is just a pro trick type of hidden strategy.

Quite correct. So Vanguards should melt themselves down even before start firing?

My opinion is that the proper way to nerf Vanguard drops is to make the transports have a slower acceleration/deceleration rate, or make it so that they have to land to make the drop (which btw every other aircraft in the game does for no good reason..). It will make the drops even more exciting/nerve-wrecking, when the drops aren't instantaneous but you have to wait for the Pelicans to slow down/land. This makes defending easier too of course.

Plasma is also very insubstantial, and would likely dissipate too quickly to put much actual heat to armor.
A pistol or mantis shrimp can make bubbles that reach thousands of degrees... But because they're very tiny and very short-lived bubbles, the amount of actual 'heat' is too small to be dangerous.

Minimize the heat so it only becomes plasma once it leaves the barrel, like flamethrowers.

Concentrate it with a magnetic field.

Your point is valid, but we already use plasma torches in industry

I don't know if it's just me but a mobilewall/radar doesn't seem very fun to watch or play.

If you can't scout the slowest unit in the game befor it gets to your base then that's kinda your fault. And if you can't kite the 2nd slowest unit in the game with the shortest range i would say that's also your fault, not the vanguards being OP

I agree - I did a 30 Vanguard drop on a Commander, and did 0 damage. Why? They scouted, and thus had proper anti-air defense.

Commander drop = boring as heck

I don't play RTS's to build a few of a unit to cheese my enemy with. I want to CRUSH THEM, Blow them up !! Drop Moons on them !! Watch my army of hundreds turn their base into a charred wasteland.

A weaponless radar tank sounds very uninteresting. Keep the weapon on the Vanguard, just reduce it's damage.

I don't think the vanguard is op, just too hit or miss. You act like slipping a vanguard is a pro move. Really, you try a few times a game your bound to get one. Then you should feel... Proud?

interesting or not, its really used as a low chance nuke. It probably should do what its supposed to. Let the inferno do the whole dunce nuke thing.

During the last days, my opinion about the vanguard changed. It's really powerful during the few minutes after the t2 factory is done. But in mid and late game, they get demolished by levelers (not really by shellers).

In conclusion, the vanguard isn't op at all.

Also, i don't get why it has a radar. It's pointless imo and it should be removed. Better make a different unit specialised with a mobile radar.

Its so that you benefit when it is in task forces with Levellers and Shellers....

Its for their benefit.

So we can give it AA as well since it benefits your taskforces.