A small gripe: Bring down the numbers

Y'know how a T1 mex currently gives you +7 metal per second (or whatever it is)?

Why +7? Why not +1? Well, why +1?

The reason I would favor +1 over +7, or any high number, is that it unnecessarily complicates the game as far as mental images go. If you have a factory that currently might take 30 metal per second to function, how many T1 mexes do you need to sustain that? For me, I can't really instantaneously think of that problem. I have to go 14+14, say that's about right, and say 4 mexes.

Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to, say, have a T1 Mex produce 1 metal per second, and your T1 Bot factory take 4 metal per second to build units? Then the vast majority of players would be able to instantaneously understand, by the numbers, that you would need 4 T1 mex to sustain that T1 factory.

Basically what I'm asking for is number scale reduction.

Instead of T1 Power making +600 energy per second, why not have it produce +1 per second, and have a T1 Bot/Vehicle fabber take 2 energy per second? That's really simple stuff. It's easy to factor out in your head.

Doing that will make it easier for most players to understand the impact of their own decisions and the impact of damage on their enemy. Take out 2 T1 power plants, boom, he might have lost the ability to power 1 extra fabber. Claim 4 more metal spots, and boom, you can instantly recognize that +4 metal means you might be able to support 2 more fabbers or 1 more factory.

I know it might be a lot of work to do this, especially scaling cost, but in the long run it should make balancing easier and benefit the players.

I Approve

I'd support this as a mod, but something in me doesn't think it should be a main feature.

We've floated the idea of making the numbers(Primarily for energy) small so that they're easier to Grasp but I don't think we can take it as far as you talk about in the OP, there does still need to be room "fine tuning". Not to mention that the ratios would actually be even more confusing, Sure You can knock down a T1 Energy Plant down to only 1E/s but that means then that Bot Fabbers Drain something like ~1.6E/S(this is a guess, don't hold me to it) and while smaller numbers are generally easier to "grasp" you lose that benefit when you include decimals.

This is a Case of Goldilocks, the currents numbers could be "too hot" and what you suggest "too cold" so we need to find that area where it's "just right" as it were.

Mike

I'm usually a fan of removing superfluous inflation; energy could be reduced but I think there are at least two reasons for metal:

1. It's at a nice point for balance tweaking without decimals - witness the 9 mps air fabber.
2. The sim runs at 10 fps, so a typical faber consumes 1 metal and 100 energy at 100% efficiency.

Both of those are implementation details, so you could probably make a mod that displays all metal and energy in scaled units.

I was wondering this as well. You know, when you literally create an economy, I mean literally create a superficious unit of measurement, why create one that isn't an even number.

They are about to quadruple t2 income and cost. So, my question here is why quadruple it instead of "playing with the scale" where the difference is quadrupled while the numbers remain the same.

I know this would confuse people, but people who don't know whats going on probably either need to learn that it is an imaginary number or their ignorance is probably a burden somewhere down the line.

Generally, I like 10 better than 1. Because that single "0" makes the number more visible. I would also approve of power being 1000. I think having a larger placeholder makes it impossible to get energy mixed up with metal at a distant glance because metal would never overlap places with energy normally with that big a gap.

The point is, then it would be an even number, and even give it room for fractional costs without dipping into decimals (use single digits for cost as a fraction of a mex-per-second, instead of a decimal of "1" were that used instead)

SO THE ANSWER IS: They did it intentinally, probably. They knew the difference in the numbers were important to tell apart on quick glance. They probably started with a base number, then adjusted it before even alpha release based on "initial balance" (which was functional yet half-baked guesses). Really, they thought about it more than you did because "1" would be a terrible number to use for most people, yet they still have ended up using an "odd" number which they could adjust proportions to make 10 literally be 7 and round numbers around that.

With small numbers comes one big problem.

Lets say T1 mex gives 1 metal, while T2 gives 2. Now for balance reasons uber devs need to decrease T2 slightly.
Opps, we get into fractions now. Or more possible scenario: you can currently build t2 mex over t1 and have both of them in single metal spot. What if they want to lower output from such setup, but still have it bit more than single t2. with t1=1 and t2=2 you cannot solve it without fractions.

So they could lower numbers later (when game is balanced) but i doubt there will be lowest common denominator for all those values. And you do not need to count all those mexes, you have nice economy/efficiency hud now, and probably will get even better one soon.

Again, they would never need to adjust the number, just the value. The value is based on the rate of gain and the cost of things you use it on. They could adjust the costs.

However, the problem is some things currently cost less than a mex-tick of production. So, you definitely need a number higher than 1 or you need to be used to decimals. I like decimals. I understand not everyone would.

10 would avoid it to a large degree, about the degree it does now anyway, while allowing rounding to nearly the values of the old costs when it was 7.

A unit of power being 1000 allows for a default number that looks significantly different from a metal value at a glance. If both metal and power were units of 1, you would see 3 for costs of things and 4 for other costs and similar numbers floating around the UI you might interpret an energy value when trying to read for a metal value. Never know.

Since it IS just a number, couldn't one already make a mod on this? At most, take the default value presented by the game to the UI, add a function to the html code to do math on it, and since it does the math equally to every value, it would literally make the economy appear to you as your desired number. I would like it to be 10, would I basically have to multiply it by 1.4444? (probably a terrible guess of math on how 7*x=10)

They should copy the numbers from TA to PA. TA has a very good eco template in respect to numerics.

Learn to maths.

But really, I'd rather have metal kept as whole number and not +1 per extractor and -1.4 or whatever for a fabber.

I think it is important to keep the unit of economy constant across economy change patches so the recalibration should not be done often. There is a little effect where avoidance of fractions determines the micro-balance in what ever the "true" numerics are.

No! We shall make things more complicated for you!

Hope you know your quartics because That's what the numbers'll be when the Rho update rolls out.

Until then we're sticking to functions.

I disapprove.
Playing videogames is, at its best, a form of mental training.
By dumbing things down, you completely erase that benefit.
If that's what you wanted, I suggest turning on the television instead.

Great to see this conversation in general discussion

I like big numbers.

It's not really dumbing down. How did the devs call it? oh yea, "make it more readable".

While i'm in favor of keeping such things simple, as far as i know the +7 metal balance ensures fairly easy numbers across the board. so +1 or +10 isn't going to make things much better. In fact, i think it's gonna be 50/50: some numbers get better and some get worse and we're back to square one.

I like powers of 2.

Obfuscating economy values = more time spent doing mental math = less time spent making strategic decisions = the same time spent on decisions, but more of them are boring and fewer are interesting.
It's not dumbing down the game to simplify something like this when you have more to manage than you can manage perfectly regardless. It also doesn't make the game any easier when you're playing a multiplayer game; the difficulty depends on the skill of your opponent relative to your own.

More manageable numbers means more time making important decisions, not dumbing down the game.

why not display the eco in binary...

it is a war of machines, im sure binary would be more appropriate

The numbers are perfectly manageable. Learn basic mental arithmetic. Memorise your timestables. If the numbers we currently have are unmanageable, managing a food budget is next to impossible, and the numbers as that are more complicated

I'm not saying they're unmanageable right now, please read my comment in the context of what I was responding to.
I was making a point that complication for complication's sake isn't a good thing in general, and that it doesn't 'dumb down' a game to reduce time spent on an aspect of gameplay that is not enjoyable (when that time can be spent making more interesting decisions).

And as for the current economy; I build as much metal as I can. I don't bother doing the arithmetic unless I need to increase my energy income by a certain amount, and then I build as many energy plants as needed (and more to cover future costs), since it actually isn't difficult to determine that by looking at net metal/energy income. I come up with approximations based on experience, not by doing mental math.

If you have time to stop and do the mental math on the income of 5 T2 and 5 T1 mex, how many energy plants need to be built to use that build power and how many factories and fabricators can be run off that with the current economic values, either you're wasting far too much time on it or you're not being honest about how manageable the figures are. I'm sure most players don't actually use the figures much besides 1 T2 pgen = 5000 energy, and instead just ballpark it based on past experiences.