Ranked Mods Idea + mock ups

Interesting idea, sounds like something thats worth a shot.

why thank you!

Vanilla puritans hurt mods...?
How?
Enlighten me, good sir. Explain to me how people who don't use or make mods somehow effect mods.

I'm not even a vanilla puritan, I'm just baffled as to how they "hurt" mods, when they literally want nothing to do with them.

They aren't hurting them directly but Mods live or die via people playing them. If no one is playing them, mods just die on the vine 90% of the time, this is my experience with SupCom modding.

I will say that it's not like they're actively trying to shut down mods or anything that. Like I said earlier, I don't think there really is a good way to "Convert" the VPs into playing mods outside of there being both high visibility and a selection of high quality mods being available.

Generally speaking, the more people playing any given mods increases its capability to attract more players, it's somewhat exponential.

Mike

Agreed, however there is one idea that I would potentially toy with.

Given it's inherent complexity, I would hope that PA has a well developed tutorial system, containing everything from how to manage one's economy to what all the different settings in the options menus do. Neutrino has already spoken that making high quality tutorials is something that the community may be able to assist with. What if one of the sections of the tutorial was "how to get mods"? I'm not imagining that the mod installation process would be complex enough to necessitate a specific tutorial on how to use mods (in fact, I'm hoping for the opposite), but simply giving mods a spotlight on the official tutorial would help place modding as very central to the PA experience. Of course, I would expect tutorial sessions to be skippable if people simply don't care.

As for the whole ladders business, that's a complex affair. Having Uber specifically curate official mod ladders sounds like a big can of worms in terms of accusations of favouritism. There are some people who already clamour for personal developer attention on various subjects, and I suspect some people might get unpleasant if their mod isn't spotlighted.

This is a situation I would suggest maximum openness and neutrality. Instead of having curated mod ladders, I hope it may be possible to have a ladder for ever mod and combination of mods. If that sounds complex, then I don't think it needs to be.

Let us assume that there is an ingame centralised mod manager/marketplace that makes downloading and installing mods as simple as ticking a box. Let us also assume that the vast majority of mods are registered on this service, whether they charge money or not. What if when mod using players look at the ladder, they see a ladder which is relevant to their own particular mods installed? Although one might think that this means the creation of a ladder of an extraordinary number of mods and mod combinations (and it would) it is also entirely automatable. Remember, each "ladder" is little more than a server run database of player performance records. I don't see why it would be difficult to add extra fields for mods installed. These could be additive, with perhaps the best analogy being how people can tag different MP3 files with different genres in a music collection. If each ladder is little more than a database, then this can also be generalised for different game-modes as well. All it needs is a little "ranked" tickbox, and every game combination would have it's own database forming it's own ladder. If players can select their game settings, then hit a "matchmake" button, then it would also allow players to play within a ladder appropriate to their settings.

Naturally, some ladders of less popular mods and gamemode types would be poorly populated, and may only have a couple of people. I would suspect the most popular ladder would still be something like "1v1 vanilla". However I would naturally expect that the larger and more popular mod collections and game-modes would develop more populated ladders as well.

This system leaves it entirely in the players command as to what ladders develop and what becomes popular. It also provides useful feedback as to how people are playing the game, and potentially provides exposure to popular mods/mod combinations. It's the most neutral system I can think of, but I cannot attest how difficult it would be to set up the initial automation.

Well I am hoping to getting around to the realisation of this mod tutorial project that I started. The fith one (when I get there) is supposed to be about mods and you know how happy I'd be to spotlight mods : https://forums.uberent.com/threads/what-about-mods.57013/

so I think there can be something done in that direction even without Uber's help. However, I need to focus on it, I'll take some time of this weekend to try pulling out some video. I would still like to see what @wpmarshall 's voice would result in this way I can shape the video around it.

about the can of worms, it really isn't that way, think of the way this is presented, and first off I never said anything about having a select few be the decision makers, (I'm having quite some trouble clearing that up throughout the thread...) this is not up for me to decide and it could end up that the system that is adopted is that everyone has a say.

The way it is presented is everyone partakes in the upvoting/downvoting (at least that part) so here, there is no favoritism. This being presented as a choice that they have to choose to go out and act of their own accord, makes it impossible for people to call out as unfair : if they want a change, it's their actions that will do something about it.

Now flip your can of worms upside down, you were balancing it on the smaller, less risqué face : the other much bigger issue, is the whole "Mods are a sub-class citizen of PA", story. That's not the way Uber wants it.

They understood mods keep a game alive for years and years and years and often build a whole new bigger and better game.

Whether that sound as revolting as the abandonment of consciousness to machines to you or not, that's the way Uber wants it. ...and as well they should!
The bigger can of worms is PA not succeeding in being a platform for mods. - This would signify it's slow death. and heck, If you think people won't get even more upset about being called out on their sacred cow mod because it's not ranked and not being able to do anything about it... at all ...ever!

...then you're kidding yourself.

About the ladder numbers, I've given some deep thought about the matter. ...before even coming up with the idea when I first stated it on the ELO/trueskill thread : I never envisioned it as something with an extensive amount of ladders. I don't want it to be any reminder of what trying a mod for game for the first time can be :

"mods count under a certain count", "big button containing..."

how did you visualize it? I can only describe it so well with words.

In spirit, the ladders are suppposed to be cyclic, with only Stock benefiting from immunity so as to not bypass a certain number of mods.

which number you ask? I wouldn't venture to pick one ; I do not dwell in the mod-newbie's mid, I am willing to bet I have a distorted impression of what would be a "reasonably small" number of ladders whereas your average day guy could probably only stand to play PA if the readability of it's UI was impeccable -> this implies a low number of choices. maybe 5-6. (this obviously deserves community majority vote or something)

I'm going to make mock ups tomorrow, off to bed.

The basic idea is we need these ladders to be "special" to wield "authority" so we can't just rank everything, that would just devalue everything the same amount.

I'm trying to create an engaging experience here. something that keeps the community pumped and active!

Actually it'd be useful to see what's actually being played. if only "Certain" mods get Ladders it's impossible to accurately gauge the popularity of non-laddered mods unless you're already immersed in the modding community(which means you don't need to promote mods to that individual anyways) if everything(or at least most) mods had a the ability for a player to see whats being played and what isn't, which can be pretty huge.

Mike

: / still not a big fan of the idea.

how about an idea of a more original sort : test month, during the test month, all mods are ranked, happens two times a year. the most played mods are kept in the 10 available ladders. (eventual changes can be applied by the community)

I like the idea, Mods provide a whole lease of life to a game but you need critical mass in the player-base to keep them going, and ranking would certainly help them gain momentum. But as always the devil is in the detail such as the functioning of the selection committee and the updating mods procedure.

As a fall-back option if an official solution isn't forthcoming, how about a Mod similar to PA stats which does an admirable job. Incorporate a similar functionality into all such A* mods and then you have created a semi official ranking system. Not ideal but workable i would think. Would likely take the mod community itself to help out with configuring PA stats to each such new mod.

Personally Im more concerned about a Starcraft 2 situation arising, where the mod list becomes stagnant and good mods cant break into popularity. (although i haven't been back there in quite a while so this may have changed).

nahh If you that then how are you converting anybody?

about the starcrft II scenario, I think it wouldn't be the case, for one Starcraft mods aren't ranked and secondly, they don't ask the community for their advice they do the mod prospecting themselves which, by itself is already an issue.

EDIT: UPDATED IN OP
WIP, it doesn't exactly look how I want it and doesn't feature all the buttons, mouseovers and written information that I'd want. WIP
the basic idea is this is the screen you get when you click "create game" so the "create game button shouldn't be there.
When you choose a game from the lobby that is of that type, the mod is automatically downloaded, be it ranked or no
link to PSD if you're feeling like you just wanna change something on there : https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22720750/Untitled-42.psd

You seem to be assuming that mods will be played-in isolation. I'm not sure that will be the case, and that necessitates a re-think of how things need to be presented.

tatsujb, I think you need to stop thinking that people who don't play mods as some kind of "enemy" that needs to be "converted", it's not really conducive to created a healthy environment for Mods.

Mike

errr.... no? why do you think that? I said all mods hosts (ranked or not) and stock hosts would be mixed together :

I used the word converted yeah, which is fitting when talking about a puritan a "vanilla puritan" ... I hope I'm not putting words in you mouth there.....

on the other hand I put you to the challenge of quoting me where I said "enemy". Did you ever come across this thread : https://forums.uberent.com/threads/what-about-mods.57013/ ???

I put so much time and effort into newcomers, give them kindnesses the likes of which I've yet to see from you : https://forums.uberent.com/goto/post?id=887244#post-887244

I'm flabbergasted honestly, I don't understand what brings you to say this about me. Is this to you an effort to seperate the gaming community on my part, where I see it as trying to make it come together??

How would mixing all the hosts (mod and non-mod) in the lobby accomplish a separation? I don't understand your reasoning.

What would, in your opinion be a "healthy environment for mods"? why don't you create a thread to that end? I've already got two.

Read what I wrote, I never said you called anyone "enemy", I'm saying you should stop treating people like enemies. "convert" has a lot of pre-existing associations with it that aren't entirely positive. Yes Mods only "live" if they're played, but people who won't play mods are far from the biggest problem. Instead of focusing so much on a minority you should focus on the people who are interested or are on the fence about mods. Thats why I was focusing more so on visibility and ease of use rather than ladders. Ladders, being limited in number as you talk about, doesn't help the modding scene, it only helps those mods that get the benefit of having ladders. On the other hand things like a proper Mod Manager, an easy to browse 'Catalog', an Active Modding Community and such go a lot farther to promote modding as a whole.

Now you are putting words into my mouth, pretty nonsensical ones to boot. I never implied any of that, I'm merely trying to say that I don't think you fully grasp the issue and thusly your solution is somewhat misguided as a result of that.

Mike

that is untrue. With this type of setup, the user has to go the extra mile to play a mod. And If you just make all mods ranked then it's the same as having none of them ranked ... but a switch in the negative results : instead of mods being seen as having no credibility they are accessible but the ladders don't have any worth.

trust me with that setup you'd be hard pressed to not have 500 ladders.

so you're saying there's a big harm in having monthly mod ladder reviewal to see which mods are in and which mods are out? The way I see it ... that's a very small effort to pay to have the comfort of an ingame set of ranked mods/game modes that could be quite a few.. but retain credibility and wield authority thanks to their ladders.

Tatsujb, Im really getting the feeling that you're not actually reading what I've written.

I did not suggest that every mod have a ladder.

I did not say that having mod ladders with some kind reviewable process is bad.

What I said is that this doesn't solve the problem you think it does and that the problem you're trying to fix isn't the biggest problem mods face.

Mike

okay, you have my attention, please elaborate.


What is mods (in general's) biggest problem?

And what am I failing to fix with my idea? What could I do to fix the biggest problem?

BTW: updated OP with new mockup.

Alright, I'll explain it again.

You are trying to get people that don't want to play mods to play mods because you assume the only thing holding them back is the ability to play ranked and you see them as being the linchpin to overall "Mod Popularity". This is a case of assumption piled on assumption where neither are right.

Sometimes people don't want to play mods for other reasons, maybe they just don't want to split thier efforts because they would prefer to focus on the 'stock' competitive scene. Maybe they don't like any of the mods that are out for any number of reasons.

You assume that just because a select number of mods(ignoring the numerous issues that could surface dealing with selection and what not) are available as a "ranked" option is going to instantly cause all those people that don't want to play mods to play them and while it is certainly true that for some people having the option to play a mod in a ranked environment is all thats needed to get them to jump the fence it's certainly not true for everyone. Someone who thinks stock PA is perfect nor will a 'competitive' player be convinced to jump the fence like that. Some people you'll just have to accept won't ever jump the fence, and while I'm sure you understand that I think you misjudge how many people that could actually be because you assume a near "universal" motivation.

Then there is the fact that having select mods listed doesn't significantly increase overall Mod Popularity, it only significantly increases the popularity of the mods that are actively Ranked. This is be cause that out of the people that you would get to jump the fence and start playing Mods in a ranked environment only a portion of those people will further explore of mods have to offer. You also have to deal with the idea that if a Mod was Ranked and stops being you'll lose a portion of players that were only interested in that mod and no longer see the point it being active with that mod because the main draw for them might have been the fact it was ranked to begin with.

I'm not trying to say that Ranked Mods will not be popular in general, because there will be other people playing it ranked as well instead of just the people you're trying to "convert". As I said, it's not going to solve the problem you think it does.

The root problem here is that we have to deal with an RTS consumer base where a fair majority of them never play online and don't know about mods. Now, PA obviously has some advantages in this regard because it's not like other RTSes in a lot of key areas, primarily it has been marketed as a "Community/Group" type game and they've really pushed multiplayer(and mods where applicable) pretty hard so I think the numbers in this regard will be much better for PA then most other RTSes.

But there is a second layer to that and it deals specifically with Mods, see not only is there effectively a minority of players even playing online, but out of the online players it's only a minority that even know about mods. In many ways it's a similar problem to what Uber faced when trying to "figure out" PA because not only is PA pretty niche RTS Sub-genre but RTS in general is also pretty niche.

So the takeaway here is that Mods aren't very high visibility, and in most cases this is pretty understandable because to most executives they see modding as a threat to thier bottom line and have, at best, simply not sorted modding and at worst actually have publicly condemned it. It's only really been in the last 5-10 years that modding has become more "mainstream. But if it's one thing I've noticed is that as a consumer group, Gamers have been pretty slow to take up this change so there are still lots of people out there that don't know much if anything about playing mods or that it's even possible in many cases.

Luckily again here PA has some advantages because they've been fairly active in terms of putting mods out there during live streams and such so it's definitely more "out there" compared to a "standard" game but the catch is that Live Stream mentions only go so far, over time fewer and fewer people "New" to PA will ever find that kind of thing out so we need something that works on a long term basis. That is what Focusing on Visibility and Accessibility can do.

Mike