Let's Talk about Vanguards

That one single unit which, if you get a single one in the right spot (Typically via pelicans) you automatically win. Nothing can stop a vanguard dropped next to your com from killing your com. They can actually take out anything. Don't like that T2 air your opponent just got up? Drop a vanguard. Want to take out some T2 power? Drop a vanguard. This is really rather OP. Although part of the problem is pelicans being invincible if guarded by peregrines, this is far from all of the problem. Vanguards cannot be taken out by a comexplosion at even half health, let alone a couple uber cannons. TA had powerful units, but the dgun was strong enough that if a single powerful unit got in range of the com, the krogoth/whatever was dead. Masses were needed to kill coms. The uber cannon is a paltry weapon. Sure, it can take out a dozen doxen per shot, but it is useless against vanguards. Proposed fixes:

A:Vanguard HP can stay only if the DPS is the same or only slightly higher than the inferno.
B: Remove the vanguard and move the inferno to T2.
C: Keep the inferno at T1, but remove the vanguard.

Also, a partial fix would be making the uber cannon's trail function as a D-Gun that does, say 2,500 damage, although then it would become abuse-able again.

Thoughts?

Please only vote for two options: One of 1-3, one of 4-5

What, so you are just able to build 2 different types of t2 unit, a t2 vehicle and a t2 air, and just get that t2 air right in without hassle?

If you can drop any unit onto an enemy, you pretty much earned it. Think of pelicans as bombers that drop units. They can be shot down before getting there. They are risk reward. They are rewarded with their bomb being an actual unit dropped to do damage. That reward is amplified by getting ahold of t2 vehicle tech as well, as a vanguard is a formidable damage sponge. Nonetheless, one could easily just defend against it.

And I have seen it kill many a commander. However, I have also seen it bring a commander to near death, did they buff it because it isn't a guranteed kill.

Remove T2 "upgrade" units and replace them with something more interesting is my vote.

... but you all already knew that, right? I think I might have mentioned it before.

Sounds like someone got vanguards dropped on their head.

Also the insane high HP, really short range concept/setup/whatever, seems specialist to me, and is nice for a T2 unit. If I was to think a bit more like a nanolathe for a moment, I'd want infernos removed. Perhaps their range could be increased just a little so they are less suck, and are slightly less as "special" as vanguards.

More like on my T2 air factory. Either way, it can only lead to death.

You can easily suicide everything to take out their T2 air, run peregrins through the enemy base to kill off the rest of their air units, drop the vanguard on top of their commander and gg

Not really. With an Advanced Air rush, Peregrine take air control so easily since the only thing that counter Peregrines are more Peregrines.

Vanguard drops are really easy to execute due to the speed of Pelicans and the power of Peregrines.

Has anyone tried using combat fabbers to counter vanguards?

Just reclaim them with air fabbers.

ground aa can't shoot down pelicans? Albeit they should prioritize transports carrying a unit as a 2 in 1 kill and high threat, then bombers, then fighters as lower priority. Empty pelicans if possible should be lowest priority.

idk, I always thought pelicans themselves need balance, and maybe they should inhereit the speed if their pickup. They still benefit from air layer invincibility and fighter escortable. Also gives inferno use over vanguard, you can drop both but vanguard wouldn't make it over ground aa.

that does sound like a good idea they carry mass they should be slowed down when carrying units, maybe not as drastic as inheriting the speed of the carried unit.

I would give it a % slow down based on how heavy , how much metal does the unit cost.

Would be easier to intercept and slow down hot drop speed with land AA units or implement the priority list for AA

I expect it to be exposed to modding, unit behavior. Hopefully one could specifically designate how they expect their units to act in their config.

pelicans inheriting an average speed of it and the pickup sounds good. Sadly, that's the most difficult for the devs to set, I'm sure it would take engine fiddling to add, which means simpler balance is just giving it a lower speed anyway.

Go Cato! Will need to be modded in, though, if you want to see it played straight in PA.

If your opponent has t2 air and land and has pumped out transports and vanguards yet you still don't have some antiair and fighters to protect your comm then I'm pretty sure you've already lost. You might be able to snipe the comm slightly cheaper than just bombers or gunships but it doesn't seem imbalanced to me.

http://www.twitch.tv/thewrongcat/c/3894218?t=15m10s

The issue isn't the Vanguard, it's the Pelican, which may as well be renamed to Vanguard Transport.

Yes, in my second game I accidentally built combat fabbers rather than sniper bots, so I had to use these to defend against a drop. Hard to judge since it look me quite a while to figure out why I didn't have an attack command, but it felt like they took too long to stop the drop from crippling you, especially if the Vanguards split up. I need to check the cast once it's uploaded though, and I can bring myself to uncover my face from the shame of building the wrong goddamn unit

Thus far, best as I can tell, the counter to a drop is a really spread out base, though that makes stopping the drop really hard. The other route would be a really compact base so it's easy to force drops to land at a distance, but if they make it inside you're fucked.

It's the drop speed that's potentially too fast I think. Even if you encounter AA you can usually drop some of the Vanguards in time.

Ground AA can shoot down pelicans, but any real hotdrop has a ton of various fighters in the mix soaking up the AA fire meaning very few, if any, pelicans get shot down.

I do agree about the speed being adjusted by what the pelican is carrying. But Uber shot down the idea claiming it didn't make any sense. Of course it makes sense!

And yeah. Ground AA should prioritize pelicans, bombers, and gunships over fighters.

Vanguard drop is one of most exciting features of PA. There is very good risk/reward ratio - if you manage to do a drop you deal massive damage, if there is just one random peregrine on the way you loose a lot of metal. In order to make tournaments more interesting for audience we definitely need more "wow" factor and this is definitely one of these. It's not that hard to counter if you have air and radars. Drops add very interesting depth to the game. It should stay in the way it is now. Hell, actually make it stronger.

I like the drops, as transports are very fragile and bases very wide.

Really guys, this is a RTS game. If you die to this strategy then you deserve it?
Fortune favors the bold, if you want to win you gotta earn that shizzle.
Imagine if you scouted what he was doing, build a crap tone of flak, get up loads of fighters.
Never under estimate intel!