Umbrella VS SXX & Overall orbital

Currently after watching playtests, tournaments, and other game streams I have become worried about orbital not being used, almost to the point of almost being ignored in one planet games. Even in multi-planet games it is almost only used to secure planets from being landed on and to land on other planets.

I think it comes down to the SXX vs Umbrella problem. That problem being not that the engagement between the two is unbalanced but that the massive price difference between the two is. You spend a ton of eco in producing a SXX to attack ground from orbital being that it is the only unit that can, only to find that when attacking your foe can build 3 umbrellas in seconds to shoot it down. Sure you can send anchors to tank damage and try to protect the SSXs from the umbrellas but if your foe is paying any attention at all he/she will target the SXX(s) and you have no other unit(s) left to attack the ground.

Some ways to fix this would be:

• Decrease the price of the SXX.
• Increase the price of the umbrella.

But I think that would be a "patch" type solution to the overall problem that orbital only has one attack unit that can interact with other layers.

I want to see what everyone thinks about the Umbrella VS SXX problem and Orbital in its current state.

I'd say yes, the problem is that the SXX is too costly, but that's not the core of the problem. The core is the fact that going orbital is the same kind of investment as going T2 with the exception that orbital doesn't give T2 metal, cannot assist ground strategy and is very slow to build. That is why I'd like to see orbital mining satellites put into game (something that generates a bit less metal than t2, maybe consumes power and requires no t2 mex on the metal spot). Another thing to realize is that the astraeus are too costly and produce too slow so you cannot use them to do orbital drops, because their investment is simply too great for their fragility. The third downside is the anchor. It invalidates avengers and reduces the speed of orbital game and the final problem is that orbital is a bit buggy. Just in this release we have the following issues: Orbital can freeze the sim/crash the game, orbital fabbers cannot assist each other or return to their previous projects, astraeuses don't need to land to unload their cargo and cannot move around in a atmosphere (the just enter orbital layer), orbital units are hard to select/see (thats because in orbital layer you can still select ground unit, even if you can no longer see their icons), . . .

Yes, but if they DON'T notice, it kills a commander in about 3 hits. So it's still a powerful tool. But I agree it still feels unbalanced.

Also, as @zweistein000 states, the anchor does seem to make the avenger near pointless to build. Why have 10 fast weak fighters, when 1 moderately fast movable turret can muller everything it sees?

I think it's because Orbital isn't fully flushed out.

It feels like we don't have all of the units yet.

I don't know what's missing or should be added...

But Orbital still feels under developed.

Orbital mining satellites that mine....What exactly?

I think the avenger was for early orbital control and the anchor was for later control. kind of like t1 and t2 units, but in its current state no one needs early orbital control so avengers are useless.

I think he is talking about something like a satellite that moves over a metal spot and shoots a beam that sucks up the metal and produces a little less than a t2 metal extractor.

I agree. I think they are fixing the unit icons thing in the next patch. I think the orbital fabbers thing is one of the biggest down sides to orbital currently, it makes it rather hard for them to work on bigger projects like the SXX. I like the idea of mining satellites, I never really thought of that.



2 units I have been contemplating could really give orbital dominance importance are:

• An orbital bomber a little more costly than the avenger and a little less damaging than a pelter. Fire rate maybe should be slow.
  
• An orbital to air missile satellite as suggested in other forums.

I also have been thinking that some orbital units should be built from an "orbital factory". Those units being:

• the Anchor
  
• the SXX
• the orbital bomber
• the avenger
  
• the orbital missile sat
• the advanced radar sat

The orbital launcher would still be able to build what it can now, just for a little bit higher cost.
What does everyone else think?

Sucks it up to where!?

Anchors need a DPS nerf. Their intended role is to be used to draw enemy fire in planetary invasions. If they're being used to invalidate avengers outright, then they need a DPS nerf and a cost increase.

Teleporters can be useful on single planet systems. Why does no one ever build them?

The satellite, but does it really matter? This is a science fiction video game, all the internal functions of units don't matter, but the function of the unit in the game does. If a satellite can move over a metal spot and shoot a beam that gets that metal that is all that matters. Where does the metal go for normal extractors I might ask, the thing is we don't know and don't care as long as it is doing its function.

Don't agree they just need to be more costly. Teleporters are not even orbital why are we talking about them? Also I build them on single planet systems all the time to move large groups of units faster.

If orbital had some form of resource, it would be neat. Maybe planets can generate with floating orbital rocks that can't be landed on but they are made of metal so you can build a mex on them (with the orbital fabber)? That technically gives you a reclusive source of metal, even if you lose whole planets.

Then, I am okay with slightly cheaper SXX but not umbrella, if you didn't know some people actually do snipe with those, I seen it and they are effective if the enemy does neglect single planet orbital.

Orbital fabbers are an easy way to get a teleporter up. You send fabbers, they get scouted out and killed by ground armies. You send orbital fabbers, they get the teleporter up without being noticed until it's too late.

The only time in the recent past when I thought it worthwhile to get an SXX up and succeeded in doing some damage was in a team armies game where they were able to snipe 3 coms out of four left before they were noticed. Once they were though, it took them a grand total of 5550 metal (3 umbrellas + 1 orbital and deepspace rader) to render the 100000 metal that I had invested into four SXXs useless. That's ludicrous.

(le derpy double post)

To me Orbital feels overdeveloped rather than the opposite, I have to say. All the layers are about shooting everything that moves in that layer (and possibly others) until it stops doing so. The layers could use a healthy dose of focus in my opinion. Even interplanetary play seems to be geared that way with Neutrino saying that he would prefer people to smash more planets rather than clamoring for tools to invade them.
But then again, this is Planetary Annihilation and not Planetary Invasion so I might be on the wrong train here.

I dunno, SXX vs Umbrella is kind of interesting because without the Umbrella (and without orbital superiority), the SXX is insanely powerful and unstoppable.

If an opponent has a row of 10 T2 energy plants and nothing to defend it from the orbital layer, one SXX will wipe those energy plants out pretty quick.

If his Commander is away from orbital protection, a single SXX can wipe him out quick too, and there's nothing he can do about it. (In previous patches you could run in circles and the SXX would never be able to lock on. It's a lot faster and more agile now. I don't think Comms can avoid it.)


SXX is almost like bombers now. They can go after undefended targets and rack up massive damage really quickly. But even modest amounts of defense render them useless. Is that bad? I dunno.

I do know that if you couldn't speed-build an umbrella to take out an SXX, though, they might come to dominate the game. Once someone had an SXX over your base, you'd never get rid of it.

Problem is deeper than just SXX vs umbrella. We really just need more units here because there are a lot of roles missing. My post in another topic, mostly about anchors but I mention other units:

Id rather cut out the T2 economy buildings, then give the orbital layer their own economy stuff.

They mine from planet based mex points (they can even mine from it when there is a t1 mex present, but not when there is t2 one).

Glad to see people agreeing with me. I really like the idea of the SXX turning on its site and basically turning into the sniper bot of the orbital layer.

Ermmm....No.

Let's not change the SXX that way - I like the way it works now. It just needs to be cheaper, i think. The umbrella needs to be, say, 3k metal. I also think the anchor needs to be increased in price. It needs to be the *frigate* of the space layer - and thus it needs a huge change in firepower. I think it needs four independently targeting turret with a large enough damage to eat an orbital fighter in one shot. RoF needs to be shot to hell though. The relationship should be similar to that of the Leveller and the t1 bot. Swarms will overwhelm it easily, but a squad shouldn't be a problem.

This way avengers stay relevant at all stages of the orbital game.

I think you missed what he was talking about. He was saying as an added option it would be able to turn on its side and act as a long range satellite destroyer as well as being able to act as it does now.