OMG Uber Cannon is so OP. Fix now!

The invading Commander (with energy storage and a few power generators) Uber cannons the power generators. At this point the invading Commander can spam Uber cannon while the other commander cant.

I think you vastly underestimate how early this can be done. You can have a Commander on there doorstep before they get there 4th power generator. Building AA would be a massive investment at that stage, and it won't stop the attack, just delay it 10 seconds.

I managed to kill Capt Conundrum as he tried this on me by harassing him with fighters while my comm built am AA turret on the near side of my base.

Then, I just waited for ten seconds, and boom! Free Win!

We're still trying very hard to come up with a good counter that doesn't ruin your chances later in the game. It's just that we're not taking anything off the table, so we see balance changes as an option too. Moving the transport to t2 might be a little extreme, but it doesn't hurt to throw ideas out there and see what sticks.

There are some defenses to this that involve air, but you can modify Clopse's strategy to build two fighters before the transport instead of a scout and a transport. It doesn't really take any longer because his transport had to wait for the commander to finish building anyway.

But then I went fighters first instead of a scout. Then your commander went boom.
Even your early fighters couldn't stop me the second time.

After fifteen minutes of playing three games (that's right people. THREE GAMES AND NO FORFEITS) against you testing the rush, I think I know how to counter it effectively.

My only problem with this is that it forces me to go air first if I want to stay alive. Anything else is practically suicide/FFA.

So, just had a guy comrush me. Turns out regular fabbers can build walls fast enough to completely block in the enemy commander and render him more or less helpless. The only thing the com can really do is start to reclaim them, because the health/mass ratio for walls is just so high.

Try playing against someone better than me before making that claim.

Like I've said already though, even an effective counter is still pretty broken. You're left with three options at the start of the game, and it just reduces to rock-paper-scissors build orders.

LOL.

You managed that?! WOW

That's a great tactic. I should try it sometime.

why is anybody not going air first now that bombers 1 shot fabbers? Even if its fighters for defence or bombers for offence, preventing the com rush with it is merely a bonus. Although, i have to say, the ability to rapid fire the uber cannon does seem op.

That is.....a really good point.

I started using bombers a while back and Im glad I did. Now I know how to use them effectively instead of jsut throwing them into an enemy.

The problem is it forces people to go air first. Go air or lose. It also is completely luck based that a fighter happens to intercept an incoming commander.

And of you go air first and spam out fighters and your opponent builds fabbers and focuses on economy, now your economy is behind.

PA is supposed to be about diversity, strategy, and options. This is binary and chance based.

Aha! Perfection. Being ahead in economy is nothing if you can't protect it.



I'm not sure I agree with the mentality behind the commander buff. It completely invalidates any concept of an early game unit based rush (and a rush, by definition, is an attack before the midgame begins, because your opponent hasn't built the units/defences to deal with it, you don't really have the economy to support a long war because you prepared a rush instead of building economy).

It seems that the change forces you to not kill the commander until at least one player has reached the late midgame.

Except as gunshin just pointed out, if you go air first and your opponent has gone economy first, you can just bomb his fabbers (they only have 50hp now), followed by his structures.


It has increased the vectors by which you can cut off expansion. You can even start hot dropping Pounders near his mex expansions.


Meanwhile, with enough fighters and bombers, you can completely remove the opponents ability to go into the air, and if he spams anti-air you can start sending doxen to deal with them. If they are defended by the commander, you can drop your commander near his base.


It's all about finding the right lever to put as much pressure on your opponent as possible, to keep him reacting.

Unfortunately it does look like it is not worthwhile going non-air first unless you are not expecting a commander rush.



Maybe at this stage we should discuss the possibility of having a starting factory with starting infrastructure

Well you can still rush, you just can't expect to full on win with that rush.

Air happens actually to be the best at rushing (A tactic of early raiding before an opponent can mount a counter attack or otherwise fight you off effectively) due to T1 aircraft being light bombers and fighters.

Alos, air-scout rushing is horrifyingly funny against enemy engineers.

I think that part of it is actually fine. I have no problem with forcing the game to get to a minimum length, because your options only increase as you expand your economy. Besides, you can still raid and harrass the other team's early expansions to slow them down.

What I don't like is being forced to choose between three strategies at the start without knowing what the other player is doing. You have to either commander rush, defend against the rush, or expand your economy.

So rushing, turtling and booming?

Isn't that the usual trinity in RTS games?

Except that there should be at least some chance to transition between strategies. As it is now, you're committed to one gameplan fram the very first second.

But, unit rushing is a perfectly valid strategy. The thing about rushing is you have to commit to it before you actually know what is happening, and instead of other things. Your opponent has the infrastructure to deal with your rush, you immediately switch to the harass and contain strategy and build the eco to overtake your opponent.


But what this does is the whole game is '10 minutes no rush'. And when you're army of 300 units kills the enemy army, breaches his defences, amd you do a recount to find 30 surviving veterans, it's another few minutes of non aggression, until you've whittled down the opponent so much that you can steamroll his commander.

It doesn't just slow down the beginning of the game. It slows down the entire game. You can't send a small task force to snipe an undefended commander.

The thing about late game options is that they are options for the late game, if the game gets that far, not the only feasible way to win because the game is set up so you always have to enter the late game in order to win.

I'm ok with choosing between 3 strats. It actually means econ booming has a significant opportunity cost.

I really like that idea.

We've talked a lot about The Egg a lot.

How we can choose what to have to start off with - which could inadvertently make rushing more of an issue...

But I'd love something that speeds up the opening build.

Very well could helps things out.