Lets talk about the Inferno

I still think that the role of heavily armored front line unit should be left to the standard tank, while assault guns or some other units should be left the task of providing heavy damage.

My point was less so about specific balance as much as the far intent, I don't feel that a flame tank really fits with the Tough short ranged type and better fits in a faster more agile type.

Mike

And there's a good reason for that. Short-ranged weapon types almost always have to be on a quick moving unit. Otherwise anything with higher range and movement speed could just kite it without taking damage.

Trying out broken looking super extreme numbers first is actually a good thing I think.

Again, this update was about getting the units in. If you watch the video you'll see that I said there hasn't been a solid combat balance pass left. Numbers will change.

Wow...

It is. Internally we joke because when I first start balancing I tend to double or half numbers. I call it 'finding the edges'. I like to push things so they feel OP and UP, that way I know what the min and max feels like. After that it's easier to fine tune it to get it right.

It seems to me like this tank has gone both ways, in a sense. It can utterly destroy tank armies if used properly, but you could annihilate these units with bots, due to kiting. Although I like this unit, it currently feels too awkward considering how it plays. I think that if you are going to keep it as a flame tank then it definitely needs to be high-speed, low HP. Though I can see slow and tanky working, it just seems kind of weird for a flame tank.

A little off topic, but is this also why you made boats so ludicrously slow in the latest build? I am dieing for comments from you on this.

Balance is a process. You'll see the process play out over the next few weeks.
I'd say we found the lower edge of the naval speed balance. I fully expect them to get faster in the next update.

Naval roles are still being worked on. They have a major disadvantage of not being able to travel anywhere. So they will always be very planet dependent. We'll find it but they are lower on the priority list behind ground and air units.

a shotgun perhaps???? But I say give the flame a chance before its dismantled. We can't even use it currently, other than a bullet sponge.

The heavy armored high health flame tank worked fine in C&C, seriously theres a lot of mindsets at work here and not a-lot of open-mindedness. Also, one member in particular was quite rude frankly. Tact people, we need it. Flame tanks in real life are typically slow; see wargame air land battle (totally different game/feel yes but accurate), at least 15k slower than the next slowest tanks. Low armor means that units will pop like popcorn before the close, if a unit can get kited by a unit type it is obviously meant for another unit-type role than you assumed and getting mad or making grandiose statements about it because it doesnt do what you think doesn't change it. Flame tanks are not for bots, probably they are intended as close range base obliteraters / meat-shields for tanks....actually this has pretty much been stated by the dev in question, why this needs to change because of its currently named weapon type is beyond me.

Did you miss the part where they listed his extensive resume?

What about the Vanguard, which is just a straight up better Inferno?

Indeed, the Vanguard and the Inferno seem to have overlapping roles atm.

We already have the dox for raiding/harassing. What do we need another fast and short-ranged mobile unit for?

Besides, you don't need a huge abdomen-loaded cache of fuel when you have nanolathe tech.

I'd say you found below the lower edge of naval speed balance. They're like a more intricate form of pelter creep at the moment, especially since many players like large planets.

The only ship justifiably as slow as the current bluebottle would be a battleship armed with four Holkins cannons.

The Inferno could be good against large unit blobs, while the Dox is cheap and more the allrounder type of unit. Imo the Inferno should be effective vs Doxes, or at least on par. That's why I'd give it more speed.

I think this was just a bad idea and the speed should be back at 10.

Reason why?

Oceans are massive, and tanks with a speed of 7 are too slow across a large moon.

Planet generation should work properly. You shouldn't put big naval units in a small pond, because that small pond is too shallow for them to maneuver properly, so they get cut to pieces by amphibious or shallow water units. You should build brown water fleets in brown water, and deep water fleets in deep water.

Naval speed was actually ok. They're slower than a Dox, slower than a Slammer, slower than a Gil-E, slower than a Bumblebee, slower than a Hornet.

58772, you see a massive fleet of naval coming at you?

Bomb them into oblivion. Bumblebees don't work for you? Get t2 air faster, or wait until the torpedo bomber is in the game.

Might I add the pyro in TA wasn't quick in any fashion.....

Because typical flamethrowers would not work in over 90% of planet atmospheres. +1 for plasma torches

And I always wondered why the balance was different from the "Nod Flame Tank" in C&C as well, as far as something that is fast moving and high damaging but dies in a hit or two so you would either use armor tanks with it or use them at turret lines or around mountain sides plateaus and chokepoints.

However, I demand nothing of new balance based on other game's balance, an armored slow short range tank works as well.

Also, it doesn't invalidate the dox. The dox are harder to hit from range and can attack from range. This is just about easier to hit from range, cant attack back while flanking at range, and de facto has to "touch" to hit.

in someones world there is no space for playing around with units
there is only space for 100,0000000000 % perfection from the very first nanosecond

... disgusting ...

Well, honestly, you are just arguing the need for "alpha" testers who get to test a build before it goes public, even if this is beta.

And nobody "wants" that, but thats why I hope we can all just be mature about updates and criticize them without being mean. I personally, for instance, wouldn't criticize a dev himself for the balance numbers in this pass, thats just asking for trouble.

ABOUT THE VANGUARD, it generally is better, and this gives it a reason to change the flame tank's movement/armor role, however the Inferno could just be a flavor of Vanguard that also has immense closerange attack power. Currently, the Vanguard is only "better" because it can attack while sponging at a distance even though it does terrible damage it does that damage at the range it can be attacked, whereas if in close range the Inferno is better. Really, you could leave it that way, and keep them as two different flavors of sponges.

Getting off topic, I wouldn't mind if there wasn't a "scout" class flavors too, being one is fast and lightly armed and low health while the other is slightly slower and unarmed with higher health (for spotting for armies with, without it dying to stray fire as easily)