End-Game Mega Units

I agree with this.

Uber wants to make all units valid at all stages of the game.

Adding in SupCom style Experimentals, or even SupCom style Tech 3 units completely invalidates the basic units we have.

From your point of view, adding more than one unit makes all other units obsolete because you dont know what balance ist.
Any new unit needs to be balanced!

Introducing some special mega bots would add a lot to the game, and thats the reason why the community added them to TA. Saying they would be overpowered or make all other units obsolete is just plain stupid.

Imagine a fatboy kind of mobile factory/fortress which you could somehow construct in orbit and land on an enemy planet to start an invasion (it could down with great speed, destroying anything in a certain radius, leaving a creater but afterwards be able to produce units). It would be quite expensive and would not at all conflict with any role the basic and advanced units right now fill. And it would be an awesome way to invade a planet without destroying it. You could also load it in advance with land units and planes. to spread them out immediately after landing, stopping enemy forces from destroying the mobile fortress within a few secs.

Why does everyone assume a megabot is automatically OP? That's a matter of balance.

you wern't even allowed to build more than 1 of these at a time... and the game STILL wasn't broken! The Mammoth MKII was by all definitions a mega unit...

You *weren't allowed to build more than one construction yard at a time. Does that make your starting building a mega-unit too?

I remember the Mammoth well. It wasn't terribly good. Do you have a better justification for why it was a mega-unit?

* Default rule-set.

Same with a commander. The build restriction itself doesn't make it one. The build restriction reasons do. The reason behind the mammoth is because of it's power. Besides, you could get another command center easy. Find it in a box or use an engineer

Also, almost forgot, Tib sun had 1 more Mega unit. He wasn't even huge. The Cyborg Commando:



He had a 1 quantity build restriction too because he was just so powerful. Especially when combined with a subterranean transport...

SoaSE had capitol ships and they stunk man. Completely imbalanced against the end game. Warcraft 3 had heros, they were literally super units that you couldn't play without - how is that not exactly what I was talking about? Empire Earth - Art of Conquest had cybers! How do you not remember masses of those OP units? It became binary, like megabots always do - cybers vs. cybers with very little variation. Tiberian Sun had Cybog Commandos and Mammoths and they were imba as **** but Westwood can do no wrong in my eyes.

SC and C&C were generally amazing at not having mega units though, and I'll wholeheartedly say they defined the genre but at least C&C ended up stagnating; I don't play much SC. Look at the latest iterations of C&C from EA and that follows exactly the same formula: release typical tech tree and units and include SUPER units for end game shenanigans, like the Arcus in Twilight. Mammoth tanks, cyborg commando... then they add Scrin Motherships, Mammoth MKIIs and the Warmechs!? There's no reason to use the lower tier units at that point.


edit: Mega units are game breakers still, in my opinion. I know people think they contribute a lot to RTS games, but I ask you this: When does the game's strategy break down? If it's binary over a few units, you should probably examine them very carefully to see if they're MEGAbots That is why I don't like them, because they have destroyed the end game of many RTS' to date.

Well we established that:

• Tib sun had mega units
• they worked
• Scathis worked on that game

so case closed then right?

I think I can flip your argument on its head. Would the Mammoth be OP if you were allowed more than one? By your own words, the reason behind the mammoth is because of it's power. The build restriction was there to stop it from being game-breaking.

To prevent PA's mega-units from being OP and game-breaking, we need to put in unit caps.

But PA is a game about fantastic scale! I think Neutrino will have a heart attack before he sees unit caps like that put in.


[PS] Looking back, I think you might have been using satire as a debating tool.

I love experimental s, always have always will, the bigger and more outrageous the better!

Yes

No. Tib sun had the unit cap instead of balancing it. That was their easy way to balance it. PA is a new game and can find it's own balance

Agreed, and so would I. I'm not advocating unit caps. That's how Scathis made mega units work for tib sun and it worked for that game. Have some faith he can make the mega units work within PA's mentality since he has a proven track record.

Lol. I still don't see how your logic flows, considering the vast majority of information about the game supports a lack of giant experiementals and super units existing only as laser satelites and planetary kinetic energy weapons and metal planets with ancient technology.

You expecting a tiberian sun like super unit, when tiberian sun is a memory we all enjoy but have learned from, is like me expecting weapon sway from ads and bullet penetration in Renegade X. You will expect it, and be dissapoint, but we told you so ahead of time.

...It isn't like all MY crazy ideas are going into the game instead of yours. It is pretty much the most reliable goes in first with anything that is a huge risk on game function and balance being a sure-tested thing before even tried. Thus, the small unit roster the whole beta up until the next update. Because boring but closely balanced, is more fun and a better place to start, than highly varied and nothing makes sense to use against anything else or just in itself.

Also, when you say Tiberian Sun, do you mean C&C3? Those experimentals were not very surefired balanced, and they were fun don't get me wrong, I loved mammoth and the scrin independence day laser. I didn't have a problem with their method, they cost a whole factory to build a whole single unit and that was a pretty fun idea behind it actually. My problem was literally the actual balance. You think a special would favor nod in balance, but nope, gdi does more as well. It does more than enough damage to win a game more than most of the time. It makes no sense to use anything but engineers in it's slots. It did accomplish being really fun and bad ***, and that game holds its place in the world because of it, but it is definitely a one hit wonder, it couldn't be as fun again if done the same.

No:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_&_Conquer:_Tiberian_Sun

it's its own game:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_&_Conquer_3:_Tiberium_Wars

C&C 3 was "Tiberium Wars"

Conversation over. We won the war, comrade.

Please stop. Any unit can be numerically similar to other units. But that's stupid. What's important is having unit roles. Unique interactions between combat units are created through roles, not numbers on a page.

Two units that deal damage are pretty much the exact same thing. But if one unit excels against lots of weak targets, and the other excels against singular big targets, then you have two different roles. See how it works?

Build restrictions exist because a unit is game breaking. Why? Because if you had more, it would break the game. That's what it means.

I just realized... you can't build commanders in PA so...

Build restrictions in PA [CONFIRMED]

lol

Yeah... you're completely misunderstanding me.

I'm not saying OP. I'm not saying it's unbalanced.

I'm saying a Tech 3 or Experimental would invalidate our Basic units.

"Invalidate" is COMPLETELY different than OP or Balance.

why would it do that? You can design it to be a choice instead of a must.

Everything in PA is a choice. The only things that are a must is metal and energy. Everything else is a choice.

We (used to) build pelters because it was the obvious choice. If I can build a unit that completely invalidates an entire group of other units, that's the obvious choice. It doesn't matter if it's a "choice" or not.

Uber's goal is to have all units valid at all stages of the game. Making a Tech 3 or Experimental unit invalidates the entire basic tier whether it's a choice or not.

Your statement about it being a "choice" has absolutely no bearing on whether a unit should be added or not. Everything is a choice.

By your logic, why not add a unit that costs 10 metal and destroys a planet with only 100 energy? It's not a must. It's a choice, right?

The question is, "Does unit X improve gameplay?"

If invalidating the entire basic tier improves gameplay in the community's eyes. Then. Well. We'll invalidate the basic tier.

But that goes against Uber's goal.