Naval Idea, The Way "Land" Diversifies Unit Use.

Whether boats and ships would both be a basic/advanced pair depends on how the basic/advanced distinction works. If basic units are your versatile, general-purpose fighters and advanced units are your supplemental specialists then it would make sense to have basic and advanced in both sizes. I don't really like the arrangement of having the small boat factory be the basic T1, and having the large shipyard be its advanced T2 factory.

There is a difference between being unable to build a unit because of its cost and being unable to build a unit because of tech requirements. I think basic big ships are the kind of unit that should be available when you can afford them without a large tech investment. Specialized ships like missile cruisers with tons of launch tubes, floating fortress battleships, and massive dedicated aircraft carriers would be large, specialized, advanced ships. Your general-purpose destroyer or support cruiser is still a big ship but belongs at basic tech with a high price tag so you can get one when you can afford it.

In fact, getting a destroyer relatively early in a naval war should probably be viable if you think you won't be harassed for the time it takes to build the first destroyer. And that destroyer is King of the Seas when it hits the field, as it would have a big, rather long-range cannon, maybe some smaller guns, some missiles, and just generally be pretty decent against most enemies, as well as being huge and tough at that point in the game.

Little patrol boats and corvettes with small weapons can be faster and more maneuverable than large vessels, as well as cheaper and more numerous. Torpedo patrol boats would even be very effective at quickly sinking big ships. But the little boats haven't got the big cannons, missile tubes, SAM launchers, CIWS systems, air staging capability, and other powerful hardware that bigger ships get. Instead, boats can be everywhere because they are small and fast, including harassing sea mexes, scouting fleet movements, swarming isolated enemy ships, and screening for your own fleet.

Oh, the irony.

@thetrophysystem, I think we have way different perceptions of boat/ship dichotomy, despite similar explanations of it. I just can't wrap my head around "basic cheap ship" idea.

Hopefully a naval cost decrease with this??? Naval totes a hefty fee currently and build time isn't the best. Now you want the player whose water start is forced to be even further behind the curve vs his land based opponents???
Not saying I dislike your idea sounds cool. Just poking holes where I see them so you can elaborate. Also wouldn't a sub factory and ship yard make more sense than military and sissy boats???

Well, you could have factories for every individual unit, but that requires micro, tons of space, and a lot of cost per need. You could have just one factory, that produces every unit, especially if in alpha with a UI mod one could build bot fabbers using bot fabbers, why even have the factory?

I just suggested my concept of middle ground, more than we have now, without going nut heavy. Maybe we could use one more entirely, maybe we don't need the one extra, maybe we need to test things out... nobody could be certain.

Stop me if I am wrong, but wouldn't a bot fabber equivalent for naval, with equivalent high efficiencies, actually HELP the naval starting position? Because right now the naval starting position is forced to start negative eco pretty much, and even though they are safer against rushes they are also more unprotected against them because of the slow buildup; they are safer only because the rush units can't travel onto the water to get them.

And the theme is open ended. It could literally be aquatic bots if you wanted, making it bots and ships. It could be ships and subs. It is open ended. The idea is just two factories with two roles similar to land's.

Well, why do we even have differing efficiency in construction units, if that's the problem? Seriously.

I'd like to see your counts on this.

Dox, Ant, Spinner
vs.
Sunfish,Narwhal,Bluebottle

If the subs were fully implemented, the useful T1 sea units would outnumber the useful T1 land units, because we'd have the Dolphin, as opposed to land's redundant Stinger. And Naval would be doing it with one less factory.

I don't quite understand the usefulness of separating the factories on land anyway, so I'll be a tough sell for doing the same in the sea.

What I want to see is a proposed solution to a "real" problem, such as how land is supposed to combat sea if the overpowered pelters become high-arc mortars (with all credit to the person who first mentioned it in another thread).

Because "use air fabbers constantly" would be that psychotic voice in everyone's head 24/7 in this game. It already is good if you have a very splurgent economy, to swarm a nuke with that mesmorizing pattern of t2 air fabbers in infinite density pumping out 2 second nukes. It doesn't have to also be the "just as efficient" way. Besides, why do all fabbers have to be the same? Why can't we have a separate role for vehicle and bot fabbers? Why couldn't that role work in naval? Be it vehicle fabber better armored, or vehicle fabber travel faster?

As far as pelter change, this really was the current balance, with all due credit to you there. However, how far is "high arc"? It could be enough to miss a tank or ant, but not a ship (they do move kind of slowly). Also, the ships have a hard time turning AND moving, so when they run out of moving they kind of have to stop and get hit by pelters. This is my guess anyway, it is as vague as yours considering we haven't seen the update applied.

As far as useful land units, they are at least doubling that next update. if they will see 5-6 units per land factory, and 5-6 units per naval factory, that will still be a turn-off for someone to enter a game and see a water planet. Most responses: "No thanks, leaving lobby..."

If you really see the difference in land factory and their products, you see it isn't literal usefulness, it is chasis. Large ones move slower and carry more armor and stronger shots with less rate, with flex in any of those areas (light armored vehicle with autolaser gun, leveler with doublecannons and heavier armor, scout vehicle, spinner), small ones move faster and all-directional while having more personal-defence weapons (dox, stinger, sniper, medic). Here, you can combine factories, or divide factories, but it would be neat to do one or the other to bring land and sea inline, so naval isn't such a hold-back of a game choice.

Or to drop down point defence in front of an approaching army. Ants can't shoot air, so you don't lose your fabbers.

High arc is huge, on the video. It's enough to miss a ship. Ships come into range of a pelter 4 seconds after the pelter fires its first shot, and they require 2 shots to guarantee a kill. Ships don't have to stop to shoot at pelters. They can just rush them and win. As it is now the balance is much in favor of ships.

I don't have the server. But if I did, I could go in and change the unit configurations, and bring you at least 3 if not more different variants of changes that balance this.

What I would rather do, is NOT IMMEDIATELY STUFF 2 NAVAL FACTORIES IN, and instead wait to balance what we have before making that decision.

Because not having a navy at all, is not a good choice, and the navy does need made an equal citizen and self sufficient branch, or they need to completely retract and remove navy and water planets altogether. It should not be a BURDEN to play navy. They are good right now, but just like the catapult, balance arguments hold null and void until we see the new system.

If you want a direct and manly argument about it, then naval is still broken in that video, you use land sniper bots ofc to 1hit the ships. Because that is obviously the result of careful balance decisions and will be in the release game. /derp.

I say a few strategic amphibious vehicles could be cool. But only it they had unique purposes.

Uber is one step ahead of you.

In their latest casts they have a naval yard and a sub yard if you watch closely.

Zeppelins sound f-EFF-ing amazing for a mod.

lol. I saw enough to use bot snipers to argue stfu about balance predictions. Didn't see sub yard. That is a suprise to me in more than one way...

either way. There is room for both subs and my idea. This could work to make naval unique and diverse.

I like the idea.

yes but ou suggested two factories... one with fabs and scouts.... kind of silly it seems and then one with just military ships. why seperate them that way??? since both vehicle and bot factories still produce military units.....

Yes it would. Really naval and bot factories should cost a similar amount to run, and their fabbers should be similarly equal efficiency. A bot start near ocean can completely out eco a naval start, jump into the water and flood the other player with bluebottles quicker than he can get significant production up.

^yep spot on kiwi

so... Wait. Having bot efficient fabbers on water wouldn't solve that? Because I said that in op.

besides I didn't recommend one being only scouts. I recommended them being like the factories. One have small naval with self sufficient roles but self defence weaponry and the other with current ships and other things that can trample a base head on for instance.

I totally agreed with your post.

Wouldn't a bot efficient fabber for naval help naval start?

Yes it would. ... and my post continues

but land isnt like that..... both factories have base trample abilities.......