The scouting problem

Are you unable to read english or just incompetent?

SC2 is largely a deterministic game. It has very little random to it in general. In terms of scouting, for 1v1, the opponent can be in 3 different positions. Which position they spawn in is random, but they are fixed positions. In terms of PA, the opponent could spawn anywhere on the planet that has 5 or more metal positions within close proximity of each other eg. anywhere.

You cannot compare the 2 games in terms of scouting, the maps are inherently opposites of each other. Also, even if your scout is blocked in SC2, at least you know WHERE the the opponent is, which is my whole problem with PA.

Now, my solution does not remove randomness from the game, it REDUCES the randomness in the game. There has been no where in this thread where i have stated that i want to be able to rush my opponents without scouting. That is completely idiotic. Scouting should be an integral part of all time frames of PA. My suggestion merely brings forward the time frame between the game starting, and you finding your opponent. Scouting affects all strategies, not just rushing.

Personally I think that a game shouldn't be decided by pregame RPS. You shouldn't win just because you choose the correct strategy before the game started. Everything you do should be scoutable and counterable.
Scouting is inherently random by your definition. You cannot see everything the enemy does or have at once(until you get advanced orbital radar at least). You have to chose how you divide your scouting efforts and how much resources you use to scout. You might see the advanced bombers the enemy is building, the nuke launcher or their orbital launcher but you might not. You could call this player induced randomness. I don't think early game scouting on big maps is anything that is likely to decide the game.
As for asymmetry I think everything is fine as long as it is fairly balanced.

Some definitions of player induced randomness that I think is pretty useful(well you could argue that these aren't really randomness).
Pregame RPS(Rock-Paper-Scissors. Pregame RPS are very bad in my opinion. It is decisions you do that cannot be scouted or is done before the game starts which decides the game. Some people might claim it is part of the metagame as in Starcraft or Legue of Legends and it can be fine if you play a series of game in an RTS but I'd say it should be avoided as I think that the game should be decided as it is played rather than before the game starts.
Blind choice. A choice that is made without knowledge of the opponent. IMO an early blind choice shouldn't decide the outcome of the game but I do think that later blind choices can decide the game. Do you go for an Anti-nuke, nuke launcher, transport your commander off-planet or make a Laser satellite? Can you expect your opponents move or will you try to scout out what he is up to?

"Pure" randomness:
Dice roll/random number. If the game is decided by a single dice roll then that's bad. However if the random event have a small impact or happens often enough it averages and becomes predictable.
Predictable randomness. If you have a machine gun with random spread it can be fine as the hitrate is likely to average as you fire more and more bullets. It doesn't have a random impact on the game.

I can read english and dare I say, I am quite competent. I just knocked you down from the number 1 spot on the BETA ladder. Now do you dare to play me as well?

Where the opponent starts is not critical in Starcraft2. It is their build/strategy that is important. If you scout in the wrong direction you might not get up their ramp and scout their build in time. This can be a rather large "random" element in a Starcraft 2 game.

Now if you know where I start you can prepare a rush strategy without any scouting. If I don't scout you, I won't see it coming. When scouting is required it slows down your rush a bit and gives me more time to scout your rush. It makes it less of a pregame RPS.

If im forced to play you, it will have to be at some point during the week.

I dont understand how limiting the scout locations from many to multiple prevents the need to scout? i still need to find you to rush you. What it also allows me to do is eco hard, because i can tell what my opponent is doing. It is not just rushing that is affected by this. Currently we cannot just eco and neglect units because we have no idea how long it will be until we find our opponents. For all we know, we could just miss their base due to a scout movement pattern just being slightly off. It happens.

This game currently has no rushing other than with the commander. And that only works because the commander is such a monster in the early stages.

It wasn't entirely clear that you meant your solution. Technically your solution is sort of already implemented if you know the map. I think that the set of start positions are always the same so if you learn the map you learn the potential start positions. Would be sort of fair if they were relayed to everyone.
Personally I think think that you should get a starting area rather than different starting positions. So you would be able to see the enemy starting area from the start but have no idea where in the starting area they started.

Anything that gives me some general idea of where the enemy could be is what im after. If thats a starting area, or multiple potential start locations, or something else, it needs to be in the game. To me, scouting is key to winning games, and it certainly feels like im rolling a dice with my various styles of play because it takes so long to scout someone.

I think this problem will go away when the "roam" command starts working properly. I'm also hoping there is a way to get builders to roam and make buildings such as extractors or defenses too...

Thats not the roam command. What you are talking about is automated scouting which __SHOULD NEVER__ be implemented. The roam command merely allows units to chase opponent units for a short while.

For any particular reason?

The game is inherently broken as an RTS if it needs implementing.

I am not sure I quite agree due to the games scale, But I understand.

Everyone agrees scouting is crucial in any strategy game. What I struggle with is the advantage someone with higher actions per minute has. They can spam on the order of 150 low quality actions, with very little thought required and eventually overwhelm the opponent. This should, rightly, be an advantage, but I feel there should also be a counter to it as well.

I'm curious if anyone has any ideas that will bring balance here. I feel there should be a focus on balancing mechanisms such that those with lower APM can compete by using fewer actions of higher quality.

Perhaps the scout plane could retain limited vision but be equipped with a larger radius radar? This would make scouting require less actions in the form of setting way points.

I'm gonna go ahead an say you're wrong 100%. This game is 100% about macro and 0% about micro. Manually scouting is micro because i have to give the individual orders every time I want to scout a new area? Who would think that's fun, or any measure of strategic skill? Some e-sports SC2 player who's "skill" boils down to his APM (actions per minute).

This game, the winner is the 1 with the better strategy. If I wanna scout, that's part of that. Why should I waste time doing that manually when there are 100s of other things demanding my attention for decisions only a strategic mind can overcome? The quickest way for me to communicate my intentions to my units and move on is the epitome of macro and the ideology of PA. I wanna scout, so go scout my scouting unit. Next unit, next order. End of story. I should never have to come back to that unit and tell it again what I already told it what I want it to do...

another game that gets this right, and is certainly not broken, is Distant Worlds: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2046...x-players-a-huge-galaxy-and-many-options.html

Your entire empire is able to be automated, meaning you only really need to intervene when you want to override standard procedure in response to strategic objectives. That's macro because the player is always focused on the big picture and doesn't need to bother with the details if they have already defined policies regarding how they want to deal with the details. There is no place for Micro in PA.

Was really tempted to stop reading there...
Seriously, yes this game is actually mainly about macro. But if you think that micro doesn't play any role in this game, then you should really start playing it from time to time. It's actually quite fun. Either that, or you should look up the definition of macro and micro.

If you don't like micro, then maybe you should go play sim city?

I don't think it's a problem because I don't think it's important to know, early on, where your enemy is....
...it's just important to know where he isn't.

5 minutes into the game I don't need to know your exact position on the other side of the planet. This information does me no good because I can't presently attack the other side of the planet. All I need to know is that my initial spiraling scout did not find anything, ergo you are not anywhere near me, ergo you are not an immediate threat.

My scouting method is generally to do that spiral outwards to a reasonable distance and then maintain a long range scouting circle so that if you try anything fancy, like a forward base in my vicinity, I'll know about it. The fact that you know where I am and I don't know where you are (but know you are not anywhere near me) doesn't change strategy in any way I can think of.


Similarly, on a map with reasonably large, disconnected oceans, I need to know if we share a beach, so I scout the perimeter of my body of water ASAP. If you aren't on my beach and aren't on my side of the planet, I don't really care where you are. I'll care once I have an economy I can actually do something with.

I think we'll have automated scouting, though. We're going to get patrol area commands and we already have the two other necessary components to make it work, which are the ability to create an area command over the whole planet by dragging the area command over the entire visible hemisphere and factories that can be given waypoints. I assume that an air factory could be queued up with scouts or fighters and ordered to send them on a planet-wide area patrol. This is definitely not the best way to scout in most situations, but I can imagine scenarios where the reduction to micro will outweigh that.

"Macro generally refers to managing large quantities of tasks at the same time. For example, building units from various structures throughout the game while also building more structures, scouting, creating new bases, etc. This is different from micro, which is generally controlling small amounts of units and giving them very specific orders."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromanagement_(gameplay)

No confusion on my part anyway. When you have 10 bases on 6 planets you don't have time to give redundant orders to units you've already expressed your intent to. Anyone who thinks they should uses their APM as a crutch to compete against those with superior strategy and tactics. seems like you are the 1 playing the wrong game arachnis. SC2 sounds more your speed. Whats your PA build order? lol

Just because mirco is in there now, doesn't mean it's here to stay. Don't get too comfortable with your mirco if you wanna win... you won't be obligated to keep using it.

Just wtf. You do know that giving your units movement and attack orders is considered micro, don't you? If you have your units do something, you have to use micro. Macro on the other hand is for example building up your infrastructure.

So basically, no matter how simplyfied micro will get, it's here to stay. Everything else wouldn't be considered a rts, but a completely different genre...

Edit: Second time today, that somebody who disagrees with me links a wikipedia article to prove my point.

So your point is that "technically giving any order is micro therefore we should not allow perpetual orders for scouts etc."? man... It's like I'm talking to a furby...

My point, in the most basic way I can explain it, is this:

Any micro that can be removed, should. Micro is to be eliminated at every opportunity and anyone who thinks micro is essential for the game to not be "broken" is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

So you're denying that giving commands to your units is micro? Even better, you want to eliminate micro completely if possible. So how do you imagine that? Having an AI making your moves for you? How casual would you like it to be?

Maybe the AI should decide which structures to build for you, too? Why not just make this a simulation where we don't have to do anything but watch?

Sounds like fun!

Edit: sorry but i can't take this serious anymore. I'm off for the night.