Some UI Ideas

I completely agree with the last statement, and don't worry I had a break, and I'm not mad at anyone anymore!

That's the issue, you don't need all of the stats to make an educated decision, most of the stats are either inferred from seeing the unit in action, I can tell that a Dox is faster than an Ant for example. Other stats it isn't necessary to display, such as range and sight range, as you can see these already.

The two stats I'm suggesting, Health and damage, are not in any way out of context, because they are in the context of each other. I know that an ant can take many more shots from a dox before going down than vice-versa, because the health and damage of a dox is much less than that of an ant. For a new player, they won't be able to tell how many dox are required to take out an ant, they just know that one is "stronger". Having the health and damage stats of both available on selection makes it much more clear, and the information much more accessible than if they had to look it up on a wiki.

Some may argue that then the speeds or other mobility stats of different units are also important to show, as they can be related to each other as well. However, considering that as I stated before, you have no real defining distance that is easy to figure out, showing how much faster one unit is than another is simply displaying useless information, because you can already see that for yourself by building both of them. Yes it is important for people to know more about the units so that they can make an educated decision, but most of those stats would be confusing and unnecessary to display, because they can be discerned from building and using the unit in question. On the other hand Health and Damage are very important, and can allow a new player to make much more informed choices, since they know that ants will stomp on dox in a 1v1 or even a 2v1.

You can't see the pitfall from doing that? Your idea only works if there is a general incline of unit strength, which there isn't in PA. You can't infer anything accurate from just those 2 data points. You can have 3 units, with the same Health and damage, yet they can Function completely differently!

Bot 1 can have 150 health and 50 Damage, but it's a Sniper Bot got so it's really slow and only fires every 5 seconds(10 DPS) but at 200 range.

Bot 2 can have 150 Health and 50 Damage, but it's an Ambush Bot so it has stealth and fires 2 times a second(100 DPS) but at 50 range.

Bot 3 can have 150 Health and 50 Damage, but it's a Siege Bot with Missiles and fires 6 dumb-fire missiles every 10 seconds(30 DPS) but at 400 range.

See how easy it is to get the wrong idea because you only have some pieces of the puzzle? I think that the best way to deal with the issue of teaching players about units is effectively just designing the units better, specifically in regards to naming. I'm assuming you noticed the Italics above? A unit will always have a Role/Purpose like that(assuming it's s well designed unit) that was the idea that all the unit's stats work to create. So instead of providing only a few of many, MANY stats and expecting the player to infer from incomplete information, why not just give them an easy-to-digest summary of what the unit is supposed to do?

Mike

Yes, that's why you can also put the shots fired per second stat beside the damage. If I didn't state how yet on this thread then like this:

Damage 10 | 4

So that's 10 shots 4 shots per second, barely takes up more space and gives the appropriate information.

Range, as I stated before, can easily be seen already by holding down ctrl.

Not that giving unit types is a bad Idea, in fact, I quite like that idea, but that can be something that is shown in the unit factory.

With the above information, I know my bot is a Siege bot, or an Ambush bot, or a sniper bot. I know how big it's range is, by holding down ctrl, and I know how much damage it inflicts per shot, and how many shots per second, therefore letting me infer the DPS and combat style of the unit.

MOST of the stats currently used to describe units are things to do with mobility, such as acceleration and deceleration, turning speed, top speed, etc. These are not useful stats to a new player. However If damage, health and range are already displayed, and I can infer the combat style of said unit by seeing its DPS and unit type in the factory, then I can already make some important tactical decisions such as not bullrushing my sniper bots into their defenses. Showing the stats of all combat units selected would help new players adjust their armies accordingly and use the right units for the right jobs. Not many stats have to be displayed, but a lot of information can be inferred from basic health and DPS stats, and a unit type, along with pressing ctrl to see the unit's range.

You still aren't addressing the problem of providing incomplete information to the player thought.

I think you're under the wrong impressions as to the problem. The thing is that by giving unit types(and doing so knowing the average bias/assumptions many gamers operate under) you'll help all the people that just don't care about specific unit stats. The people that DO care about specific Stats will want to see all of them in context, sites like pa-db.com and/or a Unit Database within the game(potentially accessible directly from within a game) will fully inform those interested.

We don't need stats in the factory UI, it's not useful to those that don't care, and flat out insufficient for those that DO care.

Mike

Look at the current UI for health.

There is literally no way to tell that a Leveller has more health than an Ant, or that a commander has 12500 health or so. It appears they all have the same health. It's only when you actually get into combat that you find that out.

Most RTSs do tell you how much health exactly your units have.

But most do so as a pop-up/mouse-over thing, not directly as part of the factory UI along with other non-build-cost stats.

I'm not saying that PA's current system is perfect, but I don't feel that throwing in such a limited selection of stats is going to help matters, it's better to get unit names/descriptions to be better representative make sure the terms used are consistent.

But Like I said, if the stats are really that crucial to a player's interests, there are better ways to present it to the player.

Mike

Yes that's true. I do think those stats should be presented to the player, however not necessarily at the factory.

You can't say that and not follow up with your thoughts! ;p

To me the least intrusive, but most complete way is to simply include a database within the game itself that can be accessed out of game(and even in game in a separate window maybe) like these other setups referred to in this Extra Credits Episode.

Mike

I do not think it should be done at factory, but when the unit itself is selected, and you mouse over it.....

I'm sorry but extra windows do not save everything. Neither do wikis. It should be presented in game in the same window you are playing in.

If presenting the two most important stats to a new player isn't good enough, than why do most RTS games display unit stats? If in starcraft I click on a marine, it shows me its health, armor, damage, and maybe a few other stats, but that's it. It doesn't give me acceleration, movement speed, turning rate, I don't even remember seeing range as something they displayed. And yet all the SC2 players I have tried to get into PA all complain that they don't have the basic unit stats of health and damage.

It's not that the other stats are unimportant, its just that displaying stats other than Health, Damage and Firerate is either redundant, or confusing, whereas showing Health, Damage and Firerate can be a huge help to new players of players migrating from other RTS games. Having and in-game wiki-link is inconvenient for most people, as they don't need to see all the other stats, because it can be inferred by the actions of the unit. The only stats people cannot easily infer are Health and DPS, which are arguably the most important! Of course it would change things if they were looking at the sniper bot rather than a siege bot, but that is why the unit factories have basic unit descriptions.

If you still disagree, could you at least present a viable alternative for displaying vital statistics to new players?

Yeah, but the point I'm making is that the numbers themselves aren't really important to many players, and the ones that do care about the numbers want to see ALL the numbers. You can't show all the relevant numbers in a little pop-up window.

But those specific numbers aren't nearly as important compared to starcraft. Also keep in mind that starcraft wastes large amounts of screen space for a UI that can show ALL the relevant stats for units(but they skip out on explaining the armor/damage types >.>) but Simulation focused games like PA, SupCom and TA have a lot more stats that affect a unit's performance, just look at a SupCom unit_bp file.

Also keep in mind I'm talking about different types of players. The people that are just playing around and don't care about stats, for those players properly describing units as I've already laid out is all that's needed, they can then infer more specific information based on performance.

The people that care about the stats won't be pleased with just 3 stats(which is far, far from complete) and will need to seek outside sources regardless.

It's not about players being new, it's about what KIND of players they are.

Mike

Then why is it that it is the biggest complaint from migrating RTS players that i've heard? Of course there will be players that want to see ALL the stats, and there will be players that don't care. That doesn't mean that there is no middle ground. I would like to see some basic unit stats displayed, it is not something that would confuse people, as all those stats are the ones that aren't inferable as is. The point is that the stats for health and DPS are currently some of the ONLY stats that can't either be seen or deduced, while pretty much every other stat is, and the health and DPS are the MOST important stats for new/migrating players. In the way I have laid out the stat display takes little extra space, if any, and provides relevant information that is currently lacking, while remaining clear and non-confusing. This UI improvement would not make EVERYONE happy, nothing can do that, however it would cover the large group of middle-ground players that are seeking the information not given to them when they need it most.

Supcom is not the epitome of a good RTS.

Simulation focused games like Earth 2150 also displayed unit health as a value in-game. The green health bars in PA actually mean nothing. A half health Leveller is less close to death than a full health Ant. A half health Ant is less close to death than a half health bot. Those aren't obvious to a new player at all.

The UI also blatantly isn't finished in PA.