Slow Internet causes issues for PA - LONG

Hi there, this is sort of a mini-rant of the way the game was made to work for multiplayer.

First of all, I live in South Africa, our "high-speed lines" are 40mbit lines, they cost $500/month to get. Of course this is very expensive as getting a high paying job in South Africa, is very rare. Our most affordable lines are 1mbit, 4mbit and if you have more money than the average person, 10mbit lines. 100kb/s, 400kb/s 1mb/s accordingly.
Upload speeds are: 50kb/s, 100kb/s, 120kb/s.

Our infrastructure cannot cope with speeds past 400kb/s and that is why Telkom, who control the majority of our ADSL lines, are placing in Fibre Optic Cables to the EXCHANGES only. This means we have copper cables running to our exchanges, but Fibre Optic Cables to our ISP/Rest of the world. This may or may not increase our latency and download/upload speeds.

Now due to our lines finally getting off our 384kbit lines and 512kbit lines and having the minimum line speed at 1mbit, we rarely can even afford uncapped, for some people who don't know what uncapped is, it means that we do not have a limit to how much we can download, usually our capped lines have a maximum of 10gb, uncapped accounts can only sometimes get past 30gb without being throttled to death (Have 100kb/s before throttled/Have 6kb/s affter throttled).

Now that you understand a bit of our internet infrastructure and how much it costs, the majority of South Africans will be on a 1mbit/4mbit, I have both. I have a work line, and a gaming line. This game really likes to screw you around with the internet usage as it requires me to DOWNLOAD the map. I find this a bit annoying as I read on another question that it will go from RED to GREEN with a 2mb/s speed perfectly fine.

Wouldn't it seem simpler, and faster, to have the map generate a unique ID which includes planets with their sizes, locations, moons and so on, which gets sent to the client inside the lobby, which then gets made by the clients game, only limited by his hardware.

This would take a lot less time for people with slower internet speeds as it currently takes me 5 to 10 minutes to actually get a map, while it is downloading the map, it lags the lobby to the point where the messages will take 1-3 minutes to get sent. By the time I even get the map, everyone else in the lobby left due to me being "afk".

Not only that, once I actually get the map downloaded and start a game, since I have lag trying to connect to the server, I never actually get to choose my own starting point, by the time I see what is going on, my commander has been chosen for me. That or I either will never get into the game just like my last game, I saw messages I typed 5 minutes ago only appearing now and couldn't even see my commander after 12 minutes.

The end result is that the current system to get maps is really annoying for people who cannot afford or get fast internet speeds, if they could go with what I described where the client gets a unique ID and generates the map or something that requires a lot less internet usage, that'd be great.

If you did read all of that, thank you.

I hope Uber Entertainment can understand that not everyone in the world can achieve such fast speeds.

Good questions and I hope Uber is able to answer you on this.

First thing that springs to mind for me, though, is that if they did it in the manner you describe, this would place a greater strain on the client's PC - so instead of punishing people with slow internet you'd be punishing people with slow PCs instead.

Very good point.

I bought my PC 3-3.5 years ago, in total I spent $1400 for a mediocre PC that lets me play low-medium graphics on modern games today.

I am spending $1236 next year while I am visiting Viriginia in the USA for my sisters wedding, on a brand new PC. This PC is able to run any modern game at Ultra with maxed out AA options, including Crysis 3, at minimum of 60 FPS.

Currently I also own a slow PC, I also have a GPU that is 4 years old, the ATI Radeon HD 5770 and a Dual core CPU.

Now, we can pretty much say with the way South Africa's government works, our economy won't be flourishing any time soon. PC's will update faster and better parts will become cheaper, faster than our internet will become better and cheaper. It has been 2+ years since Telkom said they would place Fibre Optic Cables from ISP's to our exchanges, they still haven't come close to finishing.

Granted people with very slow PC's may struggle to get into a game, but I'd rather wait 1-3 minutes without any lobby lag so I can inform other players that I am not AFK and just loading the map.

As far as i know this statement is wrong.

^^^This is how it's done ... "using .json (javascript files)" that are synced client and server-side, they define the planets and are only a few kilobyte in size!

Your computer "Procedurally generates the map" and so does the server.
They both use the same generation key so the solar system on your pc and on the server are identical,
the server then host's the simulation and tell's your pc where the unit's are and what's happening in the game engine.
At no point does your computer download the 500mb to 4gb+ map's generated on the server.
A 30 minute match only uses 300-400mb my end max, the map i play on is over 1.2gb in size in my ram.
The delay in starting is the time it takes the server to "Generate" the beta system or "Custom" system you have defined in the system editor (Based on the .json files that are synced).
At this same time your computer is generating the same system, there is no downloading of the map only syncing of the 2 at the end of the generation process..

I'm guessing in South Africa LAN gaming will be more of a used feature when the game is released.
I myself am waiting for offline play and LAN play as i too live on limited internet.
My cap is usually 3gb... and i pay $40 AUD for 3Gb of data when i hit my cap my internet is disconnected until i recharge. (PrePaid).
South Africa isn't the only country to have area's with low incomes and limited speed internet access.

I understand that there are more places than just South Africa/ZA, but I am simply referring to where I live for the time being, also, where I live, there are not people of my age. Everyone I have met in gaming is usually around Durban, Port Elizabeth or even Johannesburg, I am really out of the loop, the closest PC gamer I know is a 4 hour-drive.

Garat wrote this in response to a players message who was describing that the lobby was incredibly laggy and was taking a very long time to be ready.

Search the General Discussion Forum for: 'Beta game startup takes forever" without quotes and you will find it.

OMG it's because the server the game is hosted on is a virtual server only 1 core.. 1 core.
It has to generate a 500mb to 4gb map that takes time.., i play on 4gb + maps and my internet never uses more than 300mb-500mb per match so you have misinterpreted the information.

The lobby is laggy because your computer is also generating the map in the background.. not DOWNLOADING ,, GENERATING...

Sorry that I have misinterpreted that then, but then what do you suggest that is causing me not able to see my commanders, it will generate the map, then I will be left with messages that I do not even see for 5 minutes or longer. My commander won't even appear from time to time, only at the start of matches. It's like my internet is trying to catch up but cannot because my upload speed greatly reduced during the day.

I don't even see starting points, and even if I do manage to get in, my commander has been placed already and people have begun making assault units.

Slow internet will only cause unit's to jump around and make the game virtually unplayable
i suffer from this issue too.

Only thing going for people in our position is the game will not need the internet when it's released and will let you host local servers it will also include a good single player game.
Also the developers are constantly working to improve networking code too, so maybe soon these thing's wont be an issue, but most likely it will always have a need for a high internet speed for online play , there is a lot of data to send when dealing with 100's and 1000's of units and buildings information being updated 10 times per second between server and client.
I'm actually amazed that with a match where i had 800+ buildings and units on a big planet and didn't use anymore than 400mb for the entire 45min match.

Check out the Chronocam stuff it tells you about the networking protocol, you will be amazed at how much you can learn from these genius developer's
http://www.uberent.com/pa/2013/10/09/chronocam-tech-behind/

I *think* this can be caused by high ping, as I had such isses when I played with on AU server while I am in germany. Upload is pretty much unimportant due to how PA works (it uses super super few of it, PA is pretty much download only. Last time I checked while playing PA I had 400kb/s download and pretty much no upload. As in the upload-line was so low it was not visible next to the 400kb/s line of the download. This was maybe 2 month ago and I also had a bit of other stuff in the background (youtube, chats, etc) so don't take the numbers too serious.)

PA definitely still needs a lot more optimization and Uber knows that. So rest assured that Uber does want to reduce the bandwidth usage as much as possible.

However I wont be surprised to see PA even have some issues on really low speed connections even after that. 10GB a month is really a low low low value and I think it is understandable that Uber did not design the whole architecture of the game around the aim of having as low bandwidth usage as possible as that would hurt the game experience as a whole.

EDIT:
On a sitenote the last time I checked the list of games in PA was a bit ... unoptimized and basically created a download of constant 80 kb/s all the time. So if you have a low cap be careful with that. Might be fixed by now though, it has been a while since I last checked it.
EDIT2: This is noi longer the case. The game list now has 3 or 4 kb/s

well this would hit the opposite problem of do you have enough cpu horsepower?

and I suspect in South Africa, this problem is very similar to the internet scenario.

so we're kind of in a "pick your poison" kinda state.

out of the two I believe downloading is going to be faster on a general basis.
Remeber, what we're doing here is procedurally generating the probable equivalent of a 10,000 by 10,000 by 10,000 minecraft map in a mere matter of seconds for a ~900 radius planet alone. (minecraft never does that, only the mapping programs do, and you may know how long those take. when you play minecraft the procedural generation part of the game isn't very active as it is only used when you reach the edge of a block)

if you have more planets and bigger planets in the system then it ramps up more.

I'd just like to say, Thank you, you have all given some information to help me understand the way the multiplayer works. I seem to have had a large misunderstanding on how the system works as a hole. I know Uber Entertainment is working hard to get to release the game on time.

I hope to see optimizations and improvements added to the game fairly soon after full release.

PA is a game ahead of its time. And by that I mean many "first world" countries are behind the times when it comes to having a fast and cheap internet architecture.

Go yell at your congressman.

It is FAR easier to get a new fast cpu. Getting better internet is pretty much impossible unless you happen to be damn filthy rich in which case: Go fund PA!

Anyway PA at least should only transfer the seeds and stuff, so very very very few bits of data for planet generation. Considering that generating planets fills up the ram with a few GB of data sometimes I think it is very unlikely that Uber would even try to move that data through any kind of network

I had a look through what people said, a 1 hour game should use about 400-500mb of internet data. The problem is, 100kb/s can only download 300mb/h. So it is something they may have to mess with as capped users really will struggle.

it probably depends A LOT on how many units you have in that game.
also it may differ from version to version of PA currently

Well, I am trying my other line now, 400kb/s down, 50kb/s up. It seems to have a field day at screwing me over on PA.

I try join a game, I get stuck at Login Accepted, once 20 minutes are up, I either get lost connection, or join the game. Then I get stuck with a giant red at the top right with no response from the game or whatever. My 100kb/s down and 50kb/s up line can actually get the map and play, what is going on?

You are probably experiencing problems that have nothing to do with your connection.
Check your cpu load while you have the red dot, it should be pretty high, indicating that your cpu is working on the planets.

good point, I'd thought about that too, so whatever it is, they're transferring, it isn't the whole planet. maybe it's just it's general aspect, to help the client along and have the hardest part of the work chewed up.

How has moving not come up in this discussion?
Don't buy another computer, since your headed to the US that means you have your passport, find a European country that you can get a job in, or a visa to go to school/work and get out of South Africa, enlist in their military and it's a lot easier to become a citizen.

I'm sure it's beautiful/nostalgic in South Africa, but it in turn it will make your quality of life and your offsprings quality of life better if you leave, there's lots of legal ways to migrate, just focus on that instead of any silly game.

(By silly game I mean PA is amazing but on the priority list it should be pretty low. WAY lower then improving upon your and your offsprings quality of life.)

Just the first thing that popped into my mind.

(I'm a 10 years navy veteran, I've been to everywhere a normal person doesn't want to visit.)

My 2 cents.