I actually believe that apart from the bug of T1 mexes still being on metal spots, its fine as it is. But then again, it IS an upgrade. The end results of either are exactly the same, because we end up with a T2 mex. If the end result is the same, why does it matter about the process? The only thing in my mind that matters about the process, is which way would remove the tedious micro that is involved?(i ask this about micro since one of ubers main goals was to reduce as much micro as possible). Again, i hope that ubers absolute disgust of upgrades and micro does not lead the game to some inherent game design problems.
As I see it, the problem with T2 mexes is that they allow you to ignore a lot of the map while still having a great economy. It's not as bad as metal makers but it's heading in that same direction. Plus there's no reason NOT to replace your core mexes, which means it's not a very interesting decision to make. Actually, pgens and mexes are the only things I can think of where the advanced version totally replaces the basic version. Advanced construction bots don't totally replace basic construction bots. I don't think Slammers totally replace Doxes (cheap fodder is always useful). Why do advanced metal extractors replace basic? I might prefer something like an advanced metal extractor actually extracts the same amount of metal but has more armor and includes a missile turret. Then your choice is "cheap, defenseless, 7 metal per second" vs "expensive, armored turret, 7 metal per second".
Is it an upgrade though? One is not dependent on the other. You can build them in either order. You don't require either if your metal economy is such that just one of them is fine. The art was done such that they combine together to show all three "extraction" pumps, but if you have the adv mex, you only see two, and if you have the basic mex, you only see one. Generally, a pre-requisite of an upgrade system is that .. you actually HAVE to upgrade to take advantage of it, which just isn't the case here.
It doesnt matter if its an upgrade or not. It just means more work for the player. I think a better sytem would be some kind of veterancy for mex. If you defend them long enough the value increases and it gets a more rewarding target for raids or bombing runs.
Can someone look at that mex and tell it's a "veteran" unit? One of the other guiding goals of this game has always been "You can tell by looking what exactly is going on". Popups and information panels are great, but if you're relying on them to get the information you need, it slows you down and draws focus from what you should be looking at - the battle field. I'm not arguing this particular topic, by the way, because I feel strongly about it, but it's more about the overarching issue of building on things without breaking core tenants of the game (relying on "invisible upgrade" mechanisms, or in your example, veterancy). We originally had made it so that to build an advanced mex you had to destroy the basic mex, but in extended playing, we all kinda felt.. even though that's how other games did it, it wasn't actually fun. It didn't improve anything. And actually it felt more micro and more clunky. Metal is a restricted resource, and being able to expand your economy in only one way (expansion) limits gameplay choices. And that's a bad thing, at least in my opinion.
T2 mexes are not an "upgrade" in the verb sense. They are an upgrade in the noun sense. The Galaxy S4 is an upgrade to the Galaxy S3. You didn't take it in for a nanolathe refit; it's a separate product; it costs more; but it is an upgrade -- it is superior in every way. In order for the T2 mex to not be an upgrade, the T1 mex must still be useful in some way. You should not want to replace some of them for some reason. If you want to replace them all then it's a pretty good sign that the T2 is an upgrade.
If you allow people to improve their economy without expanding, that's when games grind to a halt I think because there's no longer anything driving the conflict. You should be forced to fight through a need for more metal. I agree with your points on upgrading and veterancy, etc. And if we are having advanced MEX then yes, destroying the old MEX to build the new one is both tedious AND pointless. MEX wreckage is going away soon too, right?
But this is the thing, it is about the process of removing arbitrary micro. I can see what you are trying to do by forcing the players to make a decision about using fabbers to build T2 mexes, literally forcing the player to build a T2 factory before they can build T2 economy, but at the end of the day, it goes against your stance on micro. It is far easier to select a mex and upgrade, than to use fabbers to manually place them. I thought you guys were always going to remove the T1 mex when a T2 is placed, and in that sense, it IS an upgrade. But if your plans have now changed, and the idea is not to remove the T1 mex, then sure, its not a straight upgrade. Other good things about upgrades for mexes, is that we are not forced to go T2 simply for economy, which is how the game is currently played. We eventually start building T2 units when we have sufficient income. But if we then remove the need for a factory to get T2 mexes, then the aim for going T2 factories is for the units or power.
Thanks, Gun. That's some good feedback. For the moment, we're mostly ok with the build in place of basic and adv mex, where you can chose one, the other, or both, but once we start focusing on pure balance passes, we'll see what plays out. Understanding what bugs people helps a lot. I think as long as the bas and adv stay unique, and neither one is predicated by the other, it doesn't seem like a huge concern, but if we change that, I think we'll need to come back to this and figure out a better way to replace basic with adv, or possibly investigate brand new avenues of approach.
I'm not usually one to try to blow my own trumpet, Garat, as I hope you know, but I did think up, in less than two minutes, some much more interesting things you guys might be able to do with Advanced Mex than simply making them output more metal per second than their Basic counterparts. You could even conveivably have several different mex options for Advanced fabricators to build. Here's my stream of conciousness With a bit more thought around the subject, I bet you could come up with some really awesome stuff for Advanced economy buildings which keeps with your theme of 'Advanced !> Basic'
How about a key-combination to build all mex on screen/planet/landmass? Or like a paint tool. You hold down 'xyz' while selecting the builder and paint in the region where you want to build mexes? So you don't have to click 20 times just zoom out and wave your mouse over the screen.
Bhaal,I total agreed with you,i now what is worry you,but Bhaal its a lost fight,there is no turning back, just forget.
The way to make Bhaal's idea functional would be that every basic mex automatically starts upgrading itself to an advanced mex, just as if a fabrication unit was doing it. But slowly (~5 minutes?), and it can't be assisted. Eventually it will complete its own upgrade rather than the player coming around to do it.
Its obvious that there must be a mechanic to make the veterancy upgrade visible. Maybe the mex could upgrade over time. But thats just the visual implementation.
Interesting read all of this. I don't think there's a fundamental problem with t2 mexes, although the increase in output is rather large so this is something to look at during balance tweaking. One little tweak I'd like to see (and this is purely from an art point of view) is that currently the t2 mex structure simply replaces the t1. I'd prefer it if it actually built an additional frame onto the side of the t1 (adding a second 'pump') as that would fit the 'built on top' mechanic better. It wouldn't preclude building a t2 mex on its own as the fabber would simply build both at once (although arguably you could increase the build time to produce it from scratch as you're physically building more stuff). I agree with the OP that we do want to encourage expansion, however I think that can be addressed with a simple balance tweak. I think if you remove t2 mex altogether you simply make T2 units too expensive vs T1 to be efficient to build and you end up with almost exclusively T1 battles (which was the case for TA when I played competitively- going T2 would usually reduce your T1 production to the extent that you were overrun before being able to make use of it!).
I dont particularly like the idea of veterancy for Mexes. For one, it prevents 'Ecoing' in the sense of rushing T2 for T2 mexes. It would greatly help turtlers (would still make it garbage in comparison to taking over the map) by encouraging you to sit on a core group of mexes until they hit max veterancy. Take a look at the top-level supcom2 games. Ecoing should have risks and rewards, not just a secure and wait 20mins for these mexes to upgrade. The current system is far superior to this, even with the inherent micro complications.
But if you attempt to turtle around 5-10 mex points with advanced and I have 50 mex points and upgrade them all.... I'm going to eat you alive.
I like this idea, a way to build them on mexes with out having to get a real 1/2 click in. Perhaps if I am holidng the build button it just auto tries to build them in where ever I drag them over? IMO upgrading all my metal to adv isn't a massive issue for me. I usually send out 3 groups of 2 engies to build metal, all of those engies will build me mini expansions.
