Factory Complex

Well yeah, the T2 pgen and mex thing is still unresolved. I mean I'm fine with your way of doing it, but I wouldn't remove the T2 gens and mexes as they are now. I'm certainly all for adding new alternative power sources in the T2 spectrum, with certain weaknesses and unreliabilities, but not for removing T2 pgens and mexes just so that T1 ones become viable again. Because that would be a mentality of minimalism that I disagree with.

Also I'm for having more specialized units and arty in the T2 spectrum, but not for changing the Holkins or Catapults as to adjust them more to T1. They still have to be more powerful in a way, because you invested more ressources into them. That point still stands.

You can add weaknesses to them, like inaccuracy and stuff all you want. As long as T2 stays a progression to T1.

Removing T2 pgens is rather silly so I won't bother arguing that. I don't necessarily agree(or disagree) with removing T2 mexes, but I can understand the argument behind it. I believe it goes something like this:

Without a T2 version of metal income, all metal costs for units(mostly T2 units) would have to be flattened down to T1 levels. Since the cost is reduced, at least partially, the power of these units would have to be reduced as well to compensate. Since T2 is now cheaper, and less powerful, it is much easier to balance it with T1 units so that both T1 and T2 are viable.

Also, since there is no T2 metal income, it is not a clear cut decision when you should move up to T2 (currently you fall behind rapidly without T2 metal income because it is such a vast jump). This lowers the economy gap between players and makes for more interesting matches because it is harder for your opponent to get ahead.

Well I think it would take a lot of decisionmaking out of the game. At the moment the hardest decision I have to make is when to upgrade to T2, because you have to make sure that you're safe from attacks at that point. Everyone who rushes T2 and doesn't think about that stuff is gambling with his luck.

There is so much decisionmaking involved at and until that particular moment in time. Your aim from the beginning is basically to figure out a way to tech up to T2 safely.
So I think that it would take much of the interaction between players away, if we'd take out T2 mexes.
Removing them would also mean that everything had to get cheaper.
That means that you had easier decisions on what to build, because you wouldn't have to commit that much anymore. And I think hard decisions is what this game should be about.

The first point you are making is that deciding to upgrade to T2 is a hard decision to make, and the fact that it is hard, makes it an interesting decision.

I agree that it is a hard to decide when to upgrade to T2, but technically it is not a decision at all, it is a calculation. There is a certain point, in every game, where upgrading to T2 and building T2 mexes, is more metal efficient than expanding outwards with T1 metal. This can be difficult for a human to figure out without playing a lot of games and having some intuition, but it is a fact that this threshold exists and can be calculated.

This same threshold exists for expansions in SC2*, or in any game where you can expand your economy in multiple ways, there is always a point where expanding will grant you more resources than building more workers. I would argue that since this decision can be calculated, it is not an interesting decision, a computer could figure it out and execute it perfectly every time. If the decision could be made by the computer, I do not think it is interesting.

Your second point is that, because things are cheaper it is easier to decide what to build.

I do not think this is the case. If there are cheap units and expensive units, then the only thing guiding your decision is what you can afford. If you have a powerful economy, you build expensive units, because they are powerful, if you have a weak economy, you build cheap units, because that is all you can afford.

If unit costs are relatively similar, isn't it much harder to decide what to build? If you go to a car dealership and they have 100 different cars all with about the same cost, its pretty hard to decide what to get. You buy based on your need. If you go there and there's some cheap cars and some expensive cars, you automatically rule out one or the other set based on your income, making the decision easier.

No, I ment that it is a hard decision because it greatly depends on what your enemy is doing. If he's constantly being agressive towards you, then it certainly makes progressing to T2 very difficult. Even if there only is the potential of being attacked in some way, you better make sure.
Also there's the choice of what T2 you want? Is it ground, navy or air? And that is a difficult decision in itself, because it also greatly depends on your situation and requires much commitment in ressources and time.

Making it cheaper would take all that away.

You could make it so that T2 and T1 units are reliant on eachother by creating a synergy between them. Like one has low hp the other high, or something differently like the one is cheap and fast and the other is slow and strong. Trust me, there will be enough uses for cheap and fast units over slow and strong ones. You don't have to adjust their costs or power.

And also I think that having all units cost relatively the same makes the decision easier, because you only have to decide on what suits your situation best. You don't have to consider consequences by committing many ressources into the wrong move. What your enemy does also only affects you by looking for the correct counter, and not the way of getting there, because suddenly you can build it much quicker.

It would also make things a bit chaotic. Having the possibility to make everything rather early would be really hard to balance as I see it.

It doesn't matter what your enemy is doing, what matters is how fast you are acquiring metal via expanding with T1 extractors vs how fast you could be acquiring metal by building T2 extractors instead. If the second value exceeds the first (minus the upfront costs of the T2 factory/engineer) then you should start building a T2 factory. If the enemy is constantly attacking you, then the first value is probably much less than the second, so going up to T2 quickly becomes the better option (because all your T1 expansions are dying).

Which type of T2 factory you make also isn't really a choice, you make the cheapest one, once you have T2 metal extractors, its easy enough to spam whichever type you actually want the combat units from.

It is possible to do this without making the units cost 7x as much and be 10x as powerful (which is how the current ant vs leveler is).

Isn't it a more interesting decision to build a unit because it counters the enemy, rather than deciding to build a unit because it is the best thing you can afford at the time?

Just because T2 costs are lower, doesn't mean they are identical to T1 costs, they just don't need to cost exponentially more. Also you still have to progress up the tech tree to acquire T2, the commander can't build it out of the gate.

I disagree. I look on what my enemy is doing atm and in what situation I'm in. I usually decide it upon how the arty and tank wars are going before I decide to build T2. But maybe that's because I like being aggressive.
There is only rarely the point where I turn to my ressources and go "I'd really like more metal now", I'm probably far too busy building more pelters in front of their base.

And I also choose very carefully whether I build ground, navy or air T2. I don't know why you don't. It's many ressources you're investing just to be able to build one of those factories. What you're basically saying is that it doesn't matter at all whether you go air, land or sea, even if it includes having to spend a lot of time and ressources making that decision.

But it is also possible while making them cost 7x as much. It's only letting you commit more and more

What if I told you that you can have both, the decision what to build to counter the enemy, and how to get there?
And that the how to get there question makes it more interesting.

We'd have to try out what works best. But I don't really see the need to adjust the costs of T2 units at the moment. I'd just like it to be balanced. Just make T1 units cheaper, idk. Maybe with something like a Factory Complex,... Bujaka!

No to be honest, I don't have anything against making T2 units a bit cheaper and a bit less powerful than they are now. As long as going T2 doesn't become too cheap to make it a difficult decision. And as long as they stay powerful ennough to make them worth the investment. But some people here wanted to make T1 and T2 cost nearly the same, which I was argueing against.

The first T2 factory, just like the first T1 factory, will always be building engineers, so the rest of the units that the factory could build are irrelevant. Between the exponential expansion of the economy, and the fact that engineers die, yes you need to be building this many.

Making T1 cheaper is not the answer. No amount of ants will ever be able to kill a group of 10-15 levelers, because the levelers out range ants allowing them to acquire kills without taking damage. Making ants cheaper does not help. The levelers are the problem.

Well ok, you're right the first one should build engineers constantly. But my argument still applies to every factory after that. It's because they are expensive that it becomes a harder decision to make.

You're probably right there. Maybe they should simply decrease the range of levelers then. They'd still be more cost efficient, but ants outnumbering them would at least have a chance.
Or make them more squishy, so that fast units like doxes can deal better with them.

The factories after that don't matter, because the decision to advance to T2 was already made before then, and it was made solely on the fact that T2 extractors exist. If T2 extractors are removed, then the decision would be more interesting, you could build the T2 factory that you want, because you need the units that it produces, not because it is the cheapest way to an expanded economy. Don't you agree?

As a consequence of removing T2 extractors, unit costs will have to be lowered for T2, but they can still be expensive enough that it remains a tough decision when to get them. Can I get by with my T1 units, or is there a T2 unit type that I need to use to counter my enemies strategy? That is a more interesting question than, "Have I reached the threshold that requires me to build T2 yet or not?"

Yeah sry but I disagree, because I don't look at it like that. Even after I went T2, and have an economy powered by T2 pgens and mexes, I still continue to add T1 factories, because they're just way cheaper. Obviously I add T2 ones too, but not quite as many. That's because there are other priorities I have besides going T2 factories, and that is orbital, nukes, radars, satellites, T2 arty and many more. If they'd all get adjusted in costs in relation to eachother, and T2 made cheaper, then it would also mean that I'd be able to afford much more of what T2 has to offer much easier. The only thing that accomplishes is that you will have more options in the same amount of time played than you had before. Making it more likely that instead of having to decide between building T2 factories or going orbital launcher and/or nukes etc. you will just be able to afford both.

Making it less a game of difficult decisions than rather of having everything and when.

Yes units would be cheaper, but potential income would be much much less (with no T2 mexes) so the net effect is that you still have to make decisions about what to build. But now, without T2 mexes, there is no annoying threshold that forces you to upgrade to T2 when it is most efficient, you can do it at your leisure or not at all if you are getting by with T1 units.

I agree that you should have to decide what to build and spend resources on, I do not agree that you should be forced to upgrade to T2 to acquire T2 mexes, because it is not a decision, it is a calculation and one that could easily lose you the game if you mess it up.

I see your point. But I'm not sure that it's only about when you're able to afford it and when it is best to do that following your calculations. Because that didn't take into account what your enemy is doing in any way. It would also be a very predictable way to play the game, and thus easily exploitable. I think the better players will get as time progresses, the more it will matter on how you interact with your opponent before teching up to T2.

People just need to scout more. If you see them building T2, just attack them.

The problem is it isn't predictable, your opponent has no idea how much your metal income is or how quickly you are expanding with T1 mexes. The threshold is calculable, but most players are basically taking a stab in the dark when upgrading to T2 because it is so hard to tell when this threshold is reached. Whichever player guesses right wins, because the economy increase from T2 metal is a ridiculous advantage if you can pull it off at the perfect time.

If you do it too early, your economy stalls and your enemy crushes you with T1, if you do it too late, your opponent's larger economy crushes you. The fact that the economy is exponential means that slight changes earlier in the game vastly impact your economic viability later in the game. Removing (or heavily nerfing) T2 mexes lowers the curve, meaning there is less of an economic gap between you and your opponent if you move to T2 at different times.

Like I said, people just need to scout more, and getting overrun by opponents that went T2 much quicker than you won't happen nearly as often anymore. I'm amazed at how few people actually scout their opponents.

My question is this.
How does a Factory Complex make T1 units "more viable" after t2.

Building units faster already has 2 solutions:

Build more factories
Assist factories with fabricators.​

Also saying T1 units are useless late-game is just wrong.
T1 units will always be useful because they are cheap and allow you to be in more places at once. They also attract fire away from your T2 units.

That's all true. I just wish that T1 units would be a bit cheaper in correlation to T2 units. Either that or make T2 units a bit less powerful (lower range for example). The Factory Complex was assumed to make production of T1 units cheaper, which would also explain why they'd be quicker to build. So that you'd have an option later in the game to make T1 units on par with T2 units again. Because it is assumed that T2 units are generally more cost efficient at what they do.

But there is probably more than one change needed to balance those two out.