Future queuing/ reorganizing orders/ move Build ETAs

READ : D
EDIT: so this is a complex idea here and very tedious to get a hold of, however you'll see that once you're thinking in RTS rationale the premise is incredibly simple.

In anycase strap on your thinking cap or you'll end up commenting completely off-topic like many have below.

here goes:

You are placing down a factory : first there's a blueprint the "ghost" as rookies like to call it (that white grid-like representation of it). Then the fabber or commander reaches that spot and starts building.

At that point you don't even have to wait for the structure to finish building to give it orders and start queuing units. The engine simply does not differentiate whether the factory is complete for it to unlock the UI elements for it. And thank goodness, you can use this extra time to your advantage, heck you're quick enough so you can tell the factory what it may even be doing for the the rest of it's existence before it even starts existing. This allows you to move on to more important things like building more of them.

In the end the only limit is how many inputs you can place a minute.

And the UI is providing means for you to make better, more efficient use of those inputs, so that you spend less time contemplating your own input limit and more time contemplating the strategies.

Have you ever played Forged Alliance? if you have what I say will make a lot of sense to you.

Common to FA and PA are an enormous amount of logic. And the ability to be able to queue up units in an unfinished factory is part of that logic.

removing and editing elements in a queue is another part.

though here we are more limited in PA:

• we cannot move the placement of structures
• we cannot delete structure queue elements
  
• we cannot unlimitedly reorganise a build queue (we currently can only add elements before that won't be looped and elements at the end that will be looped)

there were also some limitations in FA (that PA shares) :

• we cannot unlimitedly reorganise structure queue elements

these are some limitations that I feel we should remove in PA so as to further extend on the "liberation of inputs" (I don't know how to call it) I described above.

Lastly I want to allow another freeing UI element that would take the UI to the "Ultimate" level all the while being a choice (I use the word "free" intentionally):

• allow the selection of the "ghosts" of factories and give them orders
  
• allow the selection of the fabbers in the build queue of the "ghosts"

in the way the GUI looks, this requires no change.

mind-boggling eh?

though I'm sure you can see by now the benefits this kind of thing would have.
ESPECIALLY if combined with the idea of orders as a first-class entity : http://planetaryannihilation.wikia.com/wiki/Orders_as_First-Class_Entities_(OFCEs)
https://forums.uberent.com/threads/construction-streamlining.48712/
https://forums.uberent.com/threads/group-objects.57483/

here's the recap of a conversation I had with a forumite (in this thread) about this idea :


-NightBasilisk
If I understand correctly (and this is just my interpretation of your description), in your system you would have say the commander que up metal, metal, power, power, bot factory then while the commander is busy building the resource buildings you would be able to select the yet to be even started bot factory and say que up 10 fabricators and there would be some new part of the interface that would show the qued up units as a list (as opposed to just portrait with numbers) which you would be able to click and issue orders such as building vehicle factory, and you would be able to continue this future ordering vehicle fabricators.


-tatsu
exactly!
as for where you kinda loose my trail:
"or have some really sophisticated "history editing" tools to manage them."
that's what I was waiting for you to say.
In the other thread I mention how queue editing in FaF is feature-complete. there's really nothing you can't do :

changing order of structures to build___________changing order of units to build (both using click and drag)
adding a structure to anywhere in the queue____adding a unit anywhere in the queue
deleting a structure anywhere in the queue_____deleting a unit anywhere in the queue
editing placement of structure________________multiplying/decreasing amount of said unit to be built in x queue slot

It's only because all these things were possible in supcom in the first place (in easyly the most intuitive interface I've ever encountered) that I thought this was a valid idea.
All there is to do is improve on the queue system from supcom faf by adding in the possibility to select any white wireframe as if it were complete.
(this would be usefull if only for the selection part to be able to alter placement (which is cruelly lacking in PA right now) and cancel structures in the middle of a construction queue by alt-left clicking it).


-NightBasilisk
Even if it was proven to be usable the question is still if it's usable in a real game by a average gamer. I mean you can have the most complicated system possible and force it to work, but what's the point if nobody's going waste the time required to make it work while in a real game. It's like if you have a dumb option and a "smart" but really time consuming option almost all players will (if not immediately, eventually) go towards the dumb option; player mentality.
I own the games but I'm not familiar with the system you mention. Was it heavily used by people? I got them really late so haven't played much.


-tatsu
it's far from complex, in Supcom there are a couple keys to memorize and as TheLambaster pointed out it's not as feature complete as it could be but here's a possible take :
instead of having to alt-right click on a wireframe to remove a structure from queue, right click alone would be sufficient (this of course implies deselecting units beforehand and that all future queues are visible when shift is held). (I personally prefer the use of modifier keys to allow you less mouse clicks and to be able to multitask better but hey)
to develop further, I suggested in my other thread that the lines going from queue order to queue order play an important role. What I mean is, not only could you click and drag a unit from the build bar to the queue bar but you could do the same to a structure: this would instantly bring up the structure's wire frame to place down (you already have the when, all you're missing is the where).
Now let's try this backwards : you click and drag a structure from your build menu, but instead of dragging it to the queue bar you drag it up onto the map. this brings up the Wireframe but also the selected engineer's build path(s).
Now before clicking it down you should drag it around to find your desired when by finding the two structures that should be the one built before it, and the one after it and making your mouse pointer cross the line going between the two, at which point the wireframe snaps onto the build queue path and you can now choose where and then click it down. for the snapping part there's a variety of UI choices available, I think a user input will be useful for certain to avoid it re-snapping all the time. one could imagine not even physically having to find the when and simply using mouse scroll to scroll through build steps (changes being visible through the queue bar).
so now we have a pattern : want to add a unit? left click it. structure? left click it. want to remove a unit? right click it. structure? right click it.
not a single modifier key.
How is this not interfacing 101? it's a rookie's dream interface come true.


-TheLambaster
And what happens when you want to give a move command with RMB where the wireframe of a future building is loacted? I think a two key combination is safer.


-tatsu
so do I but I did provide a parry for this :
tatsujb said: ↑
(this of course implies deselecting units beforehand and that all future queues are visible when shift is held).


-TheLambaster
There is a fundamental difference between a game that is hard to control and complex controls that allow you to better control the game.


-NightBasilisk
Yes but complex controls easily lean towards hard to use controls if not kept in check or get "over-engineered" as it were. The user has to be part of the equation at all levels, they can't just be "complex controls."
While complex controls don't necessarily make for a hard to control game, isn't it true that hard to control games generally have complex controls? Just like a picture it has to look good even if you flip it, so you can't just excuse complexity by tacking only one point of view into it (ie. some ideal end result).


-TheLabamster
Well, I'd say, as log as people do not have to use the complex controls, because they don't want to bother understanding how they work, and can get the job done (more or less) by microing like a madman...


-NightBasilisk
That's the thing. At least in this iteration, because I actually like tatsu's idea, the solution might actually involve more micro and/or more time consuming micro (ie. slower micro) then actually just doing it one step at a time or with fewer steps.

https://forums.uberent.com/threads/future-queuing-reorganizing-orders.53140/page-4#post-980709

if your problem is that you cant build on mass points that have metal extractor wreckage on them, the wreckage should be getting auto reclaimed regardless when you place the building.

if your problem is that an enemy has built a abuilding there, and you need to kill it then build your own extractor, then why stop at this? why not just take it to the nex level and have an ai player be given an order to take the mex? then we could also have an ai player do our building in the base. and microing our units. and scouting the enemy.

I understand uber want to remove as much micro as they can, but if they remove too much, this game will no longer be an RTS. it will be a grand strategy, of which neither supcom or TA are. i honestly think they have done enough now, and the problems that need addressing such as scouting, need solving in ways that do not have automation.

Playing team games with colin can be a little frustrating at times because i cannot see what else i can do, and as such my apm generally dips below 100. This game needs more micro in team games, not less.

no. definately not the topic here. I know about this and I'm proposing something much more advanced.

what? I'm sorry but you liking this masochistic chore is not convincing me.

this is supposed to be the "ultimate macro game", it will do fine with less micro and will continue to be an RTS. It will even become a truer RTS at that.

It seems to me you don't play that much on multi-planet systems, and you would like to have the ladder be only single planet, because you'd be more concerned with having to do these small things in greater numbers if you practiced more on multi-planet systems.

then you should read what i wrote.

Why not just have the fabber be smart?

If you issue build order.
And wreckage/enemy/civilian structure exists, then reclaim before build.


I've always been drawn to this lineage of games because of unit intelligence.
I want a mex at X-spot.
If my fabber encounters something, he reclaims then builds me my damn mex.


I don't think it's necessary for me to micro this stuff.
Let me focus on what I want to build, when I build it, how to expand, defend and attack.

You'll have to give a different example, then, because I think having the fabber deal with obstructions on its own is more advanced than having it wait.

This.
Please let there be a minimum of SC:FAF mex mechanics. If wreckage is there of any type, it's autoreclaimed and built upon.
Culverin's next step seems a logical progression.

if there is a wreck of a mex, the fabber should be able to use this wreck as a kickstart in mass to have like 30% of the building allready built or something.

just my thought

hell this is the best solution to the metal spot situation. UP!

but back on topic, I'm suggesting future orders in the broader sence. the metal spot senario was just an example.

what if the metal spot is obstructed by a wall?

or forget the example.

what I'd like here is a stronger order-queing engine. one that takes E.T.A.s into account, one that like coldboot sugested allows the adition, the suppresion of orders in the middle of a queue.
one that allows you to reclaim a t1 factory and place a t2 where it stood. one that allows you to send engies to take mass points while the nuke is still flying, who cares if there's an anti, the engies will get there and fail to build.

also neat.

That's straight out of Forged Alliance.
There is a reason it is currently king in many of our eyes.

jeah, straight out of FA, havent played in like 6 years or so... but still remember the blue blueprint when ordering the exact same structure ontop of a wreck. i cant remember how much of a kickstart it gave ... but i think its at least 30% ?

Is there enough support for a smart fabber to put this into the list of requests?

50%

also the area of scouting is one that could profit a bit from unit intelligence.
e.g., an air scout detecting a base with (fixed) AA installations shouldn't fly straight into them and instead circle the base at the detection range and continue then on it's original course (at least for a patrol and not a fire and forget scout)

No, that would be too much. I think it is the players job to tell the scout where it should go/fly.

For me, such avoid-moves or auto retreat should only be available for fabbers.

actually ...tehee... if you set a scout with patrol points all over the world it will stop and fly frantically around attaking right and left if it finds an enemy.

...makes the find very noticable and I love the feature.

so E.T.A. capable shift-queue orders?

who else thinks lining up orders that are E.T.A. intelligent is a good idea?

There is a simpler solution for the enginner case------if the player try to build things on a position that is occupied by map feature or enemy unit, the enginner will automatic reclaim them before the construction.

edit: sorry, haven't noticed this has already been put up.

I still don't understand what you mean by ETA orders.....