Solar power and space elevators

Discussion in 'Backers Lounge (Read-only)' started by jackonorm, September 17, 2013.

  1. jackonorm

    jackonorm New Member

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    To add variety and importance to orbital warfare, I am wondering if there will be something akin to solar power and space elevators a la Gundam 00. It seems to be an economic solution compared to rockets and would give orbital more meaning than its current state of air 2.0.
    AEU_elevator.png Here's an image for reference
  2. CommieKazie

    CommieKazie Member

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    That looks live a very fragile and easy target to me...

    How would you suggest implementing this idea, and why would a player want to spend the time creating and protecting this instead of a launch base?
  3. jacoby6000

    jacoby6000 Member

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    On more established worlds (further away from conflict) it'd be nice, because it would basically function as an orbital launcher that uses a minimal amount of energy. It is NOT a structure that would go on a world that could be considered a frontier, and should be seen as a long term investment. I think it'd be cool, though possibly impractical.
    onesparxy and CommieKazie like this.
  4. CommieKazie

    CommieKazie Member

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    To clarify the idea, the structure spanning between the planet and the satellite is not rigid, but the 'elevator' climbs up the cable. So it's not an elevator shaft as much as it is the cable the elevator uses to climb? (Took a cursory look at wikipedia.) That makes way more sense.

    Ok, I can see its usefulness as on a main-base operation, but it seems like it would take a long time to move any considerable amount of forces (I'd imagine the elevator moves slower than a rocket). So why not just stack your home planet with economy structures and defenses, and a minor production system to defend and move your production forward. What would the elevator link with? Asteroids you want to put in orbit of another planet to stage an assault? It seems like it'd be faster to place production on the asteroids and produce units while moving them into orbit with the to-be-assaulted planet. I'd imagine moving an asteroid through the solar system for this process will take awhile...
  5. SleepWarz

    SleepWarz Active Member

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    Space elevators wont work. Too much electrical potential difference between the surface and the top of the atmosphere.
  6. CommieKazie

    CommieKazie Member

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    But what if the entire assembly was made out of SOLAR PANELS! And CHARGED ITSELF!
    And what if it used the resistance generated by the elevator's electric motor braking the elevator on the way down to generate MOAR ELECTRICITY!?!?!?!
    eroticburrito likes this.
  7. BulletMagnet

    BulletMagnet Post Master General

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    Gameplay over realism, especially given the tiny atmosphere on these tiny planets.
  8. SleepWarz

    SleepWarz Active Member

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    I dont think you understand the scale of the electrical forces i'm talking about. Think lightning bolts that spans between planets. Check this out = check around 6:15

    Realism over things that are absolutely improbable. So ya. Still looking for somewhat physics based gameplay. Even if its plasma physics.
    Last edited: September 17, 2013
  9. Devak

    Devak Post Master General

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    I'm absolutely baffled that with ALL the things that provide problems with elevators, you say electric potential difference.

    Things like assembly, materials science, maneuvering, etc.

    Also it sounds to me like a good layer of insulation will help.

    Anyway, i think the concept is good. I just don't think it's a priority right now.
  10. garatgh

    garatgh Active Member

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    There will be teleportation, thats (in my humble opinion) way more improbable then a orbital elevator.

    So no, realism isent much of a concern. Everything can be made feasible with "space magic = tech we havent invented yet".
  11. kosmosprime

    kosmosprime Member

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    There are plans to make one on earth, we just dont have enough carbon tubes to build it, as the real problem is the forces that draw the top of the elevator away from the planet. Also estimates are (were) that a space elevator on earth would allow someone to get into space for only 10 000 $ and not 10 million $.
  12. Kruptos

    Kruptos Active Member

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    Would you mind posting a link to an article where you read this? I would very much like to read it :)
  13. kosmosprime

    kosmosprime Member

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    Its a movie about life in 2050, and I don't know its name. I wasn't able to find it on YouTube either. Sorry :(.
    (In english that is, I watched it in another language.)
    Also, I was wrong, both values should be twice as high.
  14. Kruptos

    Kruptos Active Member

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    Pity that.
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  15. beastslairsfraggle

    beastslairsfraggle New Member

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    Apparently there are plans to build a Space Elevator on the moon first as a trial for the real deal: psmag.com/science/building-elevator-space-65396

  16. jacoby6000

    jacoby6000 Member

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    An elevator has the ability to move much faster than a rocket does. Have you seen how fast a mag-lev train runs? I'd imagine a space elevator would run on the same principles. A rocket has the potential to move faster, but over such short distances, acceleration via magnets is much quicker.

    As for the rest of your argument, my idea of the space elevator would be a cheap way to construct orbital units. The energy cost should be lower (magnets are a lot more efficient than "Quick, throw out tons of exaust really fast and hope it's enough for us to fly!"), and the metal cost would be lower (not having to waste money on big launch rockets).
    kosmosprime likes this.
  17. BulletMagnet

    BulletMagnet Post Master General

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    Space elevators aren't going to be mag-lev.

    Sorry to burst your bubble.
  18. mushroomars

    mushroomars Well-Known Member

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    To explain upon this, electromagnets simply do not have the force to haul a platform of significant weight against the force of gravity, not cost effectively at least. You would have to use a pulley if you wanted a reusable system.

    Mag-levs work really well because they can maintain a high top speed, not because they accelerate a large object quickly.
  19. sirstompsalot

    sirstompsalot Member

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    Well hold on now, just because something seems unfeasible doesn't mean it won't happen. You'll forgive me for jumping into this conversation because I'm following this science rather closely.

    A Japanese company called the Obayashi Corp has committed to building a space elevator by 2050. space.com/14656-japanese-space-elevator-2050-proposal.html - They recently posted a concept video that you can see here: obayashi.co.jp/news/news_20130730_1

    In August of this year (just a few weeks ago) the annual Space Elevator conference was held. sec.org/sec/ I will say that I was saddened to find out that they cancelled their usual challenge due to lack of competitors.

    There was a successful kickstarter campaign by Liftport that Fraggle referenced - kickstarter.com/projects/michaellaine/space-elevator-science-climb-to-the-sky-a-tethered

    There are other companies as well, such as euspec.warr.de/

    There are technical challenges however (and lightning being the least of them). Cable vibrations are high on that list. Corrosion, friction & resulting tear, etc. In February this year this article was written: io9.com/5984371/why-well-probably-never-build-a-space-elevator - However, the word "never" was pretty much the nail in the coffin on this article; they said the same thing about space flight, or even manned flight.

    For years, Carbon nanotubes have been the material that we've thought would solve this problem. Downside? Its only ever been made in miniscule amounts. There are alternative materials, but basically we need something that can be mass produced, and can be raised to orbit without crushing under its own weight.

    Now, unlike what jacoby6000 said, the idea isn't to move fast. Indeed, I think any climber will be incredibly slow. The upside to a space elevator is it can run constantly with little to no waste - unlike rockets. If you keep in mind that it takes about $10,000 for every pound we send into space, the space elevator is the holy grail of cheap spaceflight.

    The next challenge is the climber itself. Unlike what commiekazie suggested (though I love the enthusiasm) its unlikely that a climber would power itself. Instead, it would use power beam technology. In the Elevator:2010 Challenge the University of Saskatchewan won the power beam challenge in 2006 (which was awesome, given that I'm Canadian and cheered for my provincial neighbors) by climbing 50 meters in 58 seconds.

    In that same E:2010 challenge entered LaserMotive ascended just under a kilometer with an average speed of 13 km/h by using Beam Power technology. The climber was powered by energy transmitted via a high power infrared beam. lasermotive.com/

    So there you have it. After the Space Elevator conference last month, David wrote about it here: psmag.com/science/building-elevator-space-65396/ and I think summed it up with this:
    Edit: Not allowed to post links as a new user; see bolded links for copy/paste
    BulletMagnet, CommieKazie and Kruptos like this.
  20. beastslairsfraggle

    beastslairsfraggle New Member

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    Ether way, space elevator technology is still theoretical at this point, although it seems that interest in it has been growing.

    The question of whether we'll see them in Planetary Annihilation though.... I think it's unlikely. As stated before, they are a expensive and fragile constructs. Still, maybe food for modders?

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