The Alpha Commander

I've not actually created a mock up of the Progenitor but I've been doing this art stuff for long enough to see that the rig won't fit the concept, if you won't take my word for it I can 'prove' it with a graphic if that's what you require.

Either way, the problem is not that the Rig doesn't have all the right parts, the problem is the Proportions. The Alpha, Delta, Progenitor and even the Imperial all have the same number of joints and such, but they all have different proportions. Proportions play a huge role in recognition, TF2 is a prime example. Early in development TF2 had rather realistic character designs with something close to a 'proper' ~8:1 head ratio, but the Developers found that it made the different classes difficult to distinguish at a glance and it was actually detrimental to the gameplay, this lead to the exaggerated proportions we say in the Final Release.

Obviously in PA doesn't have the same recognition needs that TF2 does, but it's a good example of how important Proportions are in practice.

If you've read the thread(if at this point you haven't you should) you'll have seen that I actually created 2 versions of my Alpha Model, one that works within the Rigs constraints(barely) and a second one that does not and whose only limitation is the Concept. To me it's also pretty clear that each is distinctly different from each other, it's like a family, they all feature similar traits but are far from identical.

Mike

I know you've worked on the Alpha Commander yourself, I've mentioned your work myself at the start of this discussion (with Nano, it must be said).

Proportions could indeed be a problem without altering the skeleton (which then requires a reskinning of the mesh I think). I've looked at the Alpha Commander in the OP (i.e. Uber's version) and I've seen the concept art for the Primogenitor. The arms and legs are of a comparable scale; the main lack of mass is around the body shape. If you assume the loincloth is not animated and a part of the torso mesh, everything fits in a very similar way.

If you're trying to emulate the specific posture in the concept art and claim that to be the default idle animation, well, fair enough. But that's too many assumptions for my liking.

https://forums.uberent.com/threads/the-alpha-commander.49694/page-2#post-763510

This is your initial comparison on the rig. We've gone from "feels very limiting" to "trust me I know the rig will not fit".

Gorbles, I have Mike's back on this. The rig will not fit the progenitor, specifically his extremities.

The only raisin I can think of (and I think this was confirmed by Uber, I don't recall and am too /lazy to look for it though) for the rig being so stiff is because of animations. Uber wants to use the same animation file for each Commander's walk cycle, without having to re-tweak and rig up the animation for each slightly different Commander. Considering that they are going to have "100 Commanders" ready at release, I can respect this decision; animating, even slightly changing animations is a time-consuming and in some cases confusing and expensive process.

To this end, the ratios of each segment of each limb (upper arm in relation to forearm, thigh in relation to foreleg, initial bone rotation) need to be identical. What I DON'T understand is why Uber cannot laterally move bones on the rig along axes without modifying their proportions. You could also arguably scale bones, though that may screw up some things. But simply moving bones around does not change walk animations, which are almost all rotational animations, aside from moving hydraulics and torso bob, which is something none of the Commanders have.

Unless Uber is doing their IK live in-game, or the animation file is based on IK (both of which are unlikely, the former Uber has stated they are not doing as of the moment), I can see no reason not to move extremities to better fit concept art. Assuming the thigh:foreleg:foot ratio on Mike's Alpha Commander is the same as the thigh:foreleg:foot ratio on the Delta, he should be able to use that model in game without issue.

In fact, if I were a cockier person I would ask Uber to try and stick Mike's model in-game and see how it plays with the walk cycle.

If I had more time, I'd have a bash at mocking up said Commanders myself and seeing what playing with proportions does with regards to their overall silhouette.

As it is, I am incredibly pressed for time. Thanks for your counterarguments regardless (and Mike's)!

Why do I get the feeling you haven't read the whole thread? You try to make it out as if I'm making some kind of blind leap or assumption. There has been 9.5 pages(or using time, more than a month) of discussion since then and a Lot has been talked about, tested and learned.



That is a representation of the Rig used by the Alpha and Delta overlaid on the Progenitor Concept, as should be clear not, it isn't even close to fitting the Progenitor just as it didn't fit the Alpha.

Actually for the legs on my V2 Alpha I just scaled them up a bit, so the proportions to the legs are still the same so in theory it could/might/maybe work.

Mike

I guess.. the difference between the Alpha commander and its concept is the emotional "signal" it is giving. In the concept it looks like a very confident commander with the attitude "Here I am, get out of the way puny human!". Where the realized version misses any "emotion". I think the hips should be wider, shoulders and launchers sloped backwards and the belly more volume.

While this is about the Alpha commander. I think the different "emotional" signals between the commanders is very important to make multiple versions a success.

Doesn't work.

They made a cut at the wrong end and thereby disabled themselfs from the option to use the same animations for DIFFERENT rigs.

Therefore all bipedal commandars will share the very same rig and thereby proportions, even if it doesn't match the unit's overall style.

And it's not even like that limitation would have been necessary.
It is so simple to bake the animation just during launch time from the hierarchical skeleton and a generic animation file, but they made the mistake to ship the fully baked animations instead.

By the way: Both solutions have the same impact on performance ingame. So this limitation is simply a design flaw. (Baking the animation is what gives you the performance boost. Doesn't matter whether this happens on the client or during the build process, as long as it does happen.)

@knight: why do I get the feeling you'd rather resort to putting me down than actually being polite and constructive? Considering I have been nothing but.

You are placing a rig on a piece of concept art and using it as proof. Which is why the discussion trended upon actually playing about with things ingame, or rather, in a model editing program. It's far more conclusive than providing me with something done in Paint, Photoshop, GIMP or whatever and citing it as proof with a truckload of derision shoved in.

For example, exterminans' post is useful, assuming all data is correct (I wouldn't know specifically, I'm approaching this from the perspective of a debate). Yours is not.

Considering how the alpha commander is when compared to the provided concept art.

Mike is correct.

So you say you don't have time to do the argument justice, and then turn around and say my argument is worthless because I don't spend 5+ hours creating a model from scratch? All you're saying at this point might as well be "I don't believe you" because that's what it boils down to.

Fact is that I can use my experience working on all this kind of stuff for the last 5 years including my work throughout this thread to demonstrate how much the Alpha design had to be modified, so when I(and others) say the Progenitor won't fit the rig, and show you how the Rig compares to the concept via the overlay, none of it matters? I have to ask what would it take to convince you then? Because it seems to me like the only thing that will convince you is your own experience, which isn't really helpful attitude for a 'debate'.

Maybe to show a bit more just what happened to the Alpha, we can look at this comparison;


From left to right;
Alpha Concept
Uber Official Model
My First Pass, remaining constrained to the Rig
My interpretation of the Concept

Mike

I never said your argument was worthless, Mike. I said that that image you provided brings very little to the discussion.

I have been trying my utmost to show that I have respect for your ability and experience. However, I get annoyed when you repeatedly accuse me of not reading things, when I have. You then act defensively when I call you out on a single data point. Get thicker skin, and don't criticise someone else if you're not prepared to have your own arguements dissected.

There is one obvious problem with your intepretation (and your first pass) - that of the shoulders being aligned downwards (/forwards), in line with the positioning in the concept sketch. The concept sketch only does this because the arms are pushed backwards, in turn rotating the (obviously fixed) shoulder guards forwards. Your renders do not do this, and have the arms set at a 90 degree angle.

You have attempted to reflect the pose of the concept art in a static mesh. The concept art has lowered forearms and pushed-back upper arms. The back has a slight arc indicating the torso is pointing slightly upwards (hence the head block pointing further upwards than it would at rest). The legs are pushed apart to brace for the strain on the torso, thus exposing the navel and hip joints. None of this is reflected in Uber's mesh, as animations are not implemented yet. As a consequence, your intepretation of the concept has far wider gaps between the hips than would be ideal - in my opinion.

This is completely ignoring the arguments I have attempted to bring about a concept not being 100% indicative of the final ingame product. Any game should provide proof enough for this argument, should you wish to debate it.

Also, if your issue is that the animations shown in the images linked in the OP are not indicative of the concept art, then that is different from complaining that the rig is wrong and the model proportions are not indicative of said concept art.

You didn't read this thread, did you?

Animations ARE already implemented and the commanders ARE already fully animated and that's the root cause for the proportions being of.

All humanoid commanders have to use the same proportions as the first one - and the first was the delta commander which now dictates proportions for all other commanders.

Caused by a major design flaw in the engine where they forgot to uncouple the proportions of the rig from the animation properties.

Bad phrasing on my behalf. It's evident from the game images that the animations are implemented. I was talking about the mesh comparison knight/Mike posted.

I never saw much of a problem with the images linked in the OP, hence why I am taking the stance that I am.

Otherwise I wouldn't be arguing in the first place, right?

Please don't chop and misquote my post, btw, it really annoys me. You're completely lacking context for anyone else that misses my post and instead reads yours.

*mod edited*

And I did several mock ups of the Concept Pose uing both my First Pass and my Concept Realization;





The pose itself was always going to be the first casualty once it came down to in-game implementation, but as you can see the pose really showcases just how much the different proportions affect the silhouette of the Alpha.

Except that as per Garat, the changes are due to the limits of the rig rather than a design evolution. At this stage the only thing that might need to change are tweaks to the Gun/Lathe arms to better showcase the red/green glow elements. The whole point is that the Commanders are all different, there would be NOTHING wrong with making hte Alph alook exactly like it does in the Concept because there is no standard they need to conform to aside from having Gun/Lathe arms of some fashion. The Rigidity of the Rigs serves to break down the differences to be had among commanders of the same 'type'(in this case Upright-Bipedal).

Also what will happen to the Commander from the Pre-Viz? It certainly doesn't fit the Rig and what kind of design changes are going to have to happen for that to work?

Also worth considering is how hard Uber Sold that concept, I'm getting a T-Shirt with the Concept design, or at least it better be the concept. The Alpha might be one of the figures as well and we still don't know yet which commander with be chosen for the Statue.

The Pre-Viz and the Concepts aren't JUST concepts once you use them to SELL not only the game, but related products. It's like playing Halo, but then when you go to the store to buy some t-shirts or whatever they look different than what you saw in the game?

Mike

Ok, now I'm depressed. I was looking forward to those miniatures and now... now I just have a deep sinking sensation in my stomach.

Thanks Knight ...

... you git ...

The thing is, I don't really see the massive differences between Uber's implementation (as per the OP) and your tweaked setup. The only thing I would prefer from your model is the extended shoulder/torso wedges that extend from the left and right of the torso - that is a definite improvement.

However, if this is a sacrifice with regards to the way they have designed the animations, I'm willing to accept that. It is a minor travesty given both the scope of the game and the amount of time I'm going to spend staring at the Alpha (and other) Commanders.

I understand that you do consider it more than a minor travesty, however remember that I initially was involved in this debate because I was concerned that the points being raised erred on the side of demanding because the assumption was that your mockup was more faithful than Uber's was. I'm happy to agree to disagree if you are, as I doubt we'll ever agree on this subject!

Hey at least for you it's just the Figures! I have to worry about not only them, but the statue and my Custom Commander.

The thing is, as much as it hurts that the Alpha was changed(I reallllllllly like the Alpha concept) it's only the tip of the iceberg. What happens when there is 10+ Upright Bipedal Commanders that all have the same proportions and Gun/Lathe Arms? You lose out on a lot of variety. Even if you look at the 4 Potential Upright-Bipedal designs, you have a nice selection of variety, the Alpha and Progenitor are Lanky and the Progenitor doesn't have a head, the Delta is the stout one and the Imperial is the average Bot. But the Setup for hte Rigs leads everything to be just like the Delta.

Mike

Im still eagerly awaiting my Progenitor Commander.

BTW it would be awesome if i could get some renders of the Progenitor. I was planning on building one in minecraft.

I will have the very same issue, it will just look like the delta commander, only with slightly different decals.

The Progenitor doesn't have a head - I agree, however the torso is more diamond-shaped than even the Delta, so there shouldn't be an issue there. The same goes for the Alpha Commander having the head in a similar position (is it fixed? I don't think it's animated; would you even need to have a bone for the Alpha's head?

I agree that you lose variety in that you're locked to a specific bipedal form. I'm not sure how adversely that will affect the other designs as of yet, as I'm not that fussed by how the Alpha has turned out.

EDIT@exterminans: now that's just being silly. The Alpha Commander has a vastly different mesh to the Delta Commander.

"decals", indeed.