The Politics Thread (PLAY NICELY!)

You are not wrong. Your perspective as trump as an almighty dictator is over the top.

I'm american. I personally would never vote for trump. I underating how he won and why he won. There is a large group of American whose wallets were hurt. In my township someone making $50,000 will end paying 15,000 in income tax and $14,000 in health insurance premuims alone (when 5 years ago they would have paid 3,000 for the same coverage) This isn't including real estate taxes, sales tax, fuel tax, hotel tax, and so forth. You add all that up and that's why trump won. Americans wanted change.

Yes, racist voted on both sides but that is a very small percentage.

Ofc the reasons are pretty complex and Trump isn't a dictator yet
The US sure is getting change now, that much is visible. Trumps behavior and the changes he has done so far are not even unexpected in light of his campaign promises, but seeing this madness actually come true the one thing that seems certain is that mid to long term these things will have negative consequences, not only for unlucky foreigners stuck at airports, but also for people born in the US.
Well some Americans already do suffer from this as well. Like imagine you're doing business with Iran, thanks to Trump you now can't enter there anymore.

Absolutely. Just like making a connection between Muslim and Terrorist is just as wrong. That's the whole reason I brought up that point

EDIT:

How lucky somebody just posted something on reddit that can help you understand the fallacy at work here. Not that you don't already know this stuff...



P(Is Terrorist | Is Muslim) = (P(IsMuslim | IsTerrorist) P(IsTerrorist)) / P(IsMuslim)

When your goal is to ban terrorists than after doing the math you/Trump failed

there is this thing of ones decision to inevetiably affecting others be it directly or indirectly ..

in the case of the ban it´s like "we close the doors so let the others deal with it" .. don´t tell me you would be suprised by the concern or anger of other people on you ..

threattening companies building factories outside of the US with taxpenalties - lost potential jobs on foreign countries

... damn it i´m posting in this damn thread again ..

You do realize, when that factories closes in the US and 5000 people get laid off that affects our communities? Yes, the US does a great job of creating new jobs, but those people laid of are generally not rehired because they are specialized industries. Your argument shoots both ways.

Don't get me started on h.i.. Obamacare is the worse legislation in my lifetime. Obamacare doesn't care about people's health. Insurance companies can pick a cancer medicine with lower success rates hoping the person will die faster. Thats the real obamacare. It was made by obama and insurance insiders to profit certain companies. The real obamacare has a sick person go to the incoverage hospital only to find all the drs out of network. The real obamacare doesnt cover ambulances trips or tells you which drs to go to. The real obamacare makes young people yearly pay thousands for insurance that they never use. And these are just my and my family experiences. **** obamacare!

Obamacare's real name is the Affordable Care Act, and was legislated on the presumption that buy-in lowers premiums (I'm abstracting a large amount, it's late).

If it hadn't been sabotaged by the GOP, and altered during the process that happens before anything becomes law, it would've been a very different piece of legislation than it is now. And yet, it's still better than what you had beforehand.

What you're using is an emotive argument; an appeal to emotion. What may or may not be the case for the taxes (or insurance premiums) your family personally pays, might not be the case across the country.

And yes, you are taxed for things that you might not see the benefit of. That's how taxation works. You pay tax for social security, and other related services. I pay taxes (in the UK) to my government so that my local library will remain open. I don't go to the library.

But as a working adult, in a full-time job, it's good that I help keep them open, because younger people might spend a lot of time there. They might learn a lot there. Importance is relative.

I have no idea if that is true or what exactly the terrorist travel prevention act is. Probably nothing too good. Few laws that deal with terrorism are good.

Not quite sure what you want to say however.
The best interpretation I can give is that people warned about giving the state too much power (i.e. laws that value security over freedom to deal with perceived threats) for a long time, often stating that even if the current government is "nice" a government of the future won't be. Now we are in that future.

I agree?

Every modern president has increased the power of the executive branch. I haven't looked into anything past Reagan, but it probably goes further.

Eventually, we'll either have backlash or a dictatorship. We're a ways away from a dictatorship, but I'm still hoping the negative public opinion of Trump causes some backlash.

If that guy can't manage to create a backlash, who else possibly can?

I stated facts. Our American insurance is expensive and doesn't cover anything anymore. You stated an opponion and 63.5 million Americans think the country was better before devilcare. #truth

Edit:
Obama wasn't a bad president or a bad guy, but he was in the pockets of too many health insurance executives. He didn't care for little guys. That's why even bill Clinton called it crazy.

Also not one republican voted for obamacare. Can blame them for a lot but not this.

Oh, I absolutely can. There were some things like the public option that had the support of 59 senators, but GOP fillibuster meant that they needed 60 and due to a ludicrous number of GOP shenanigans (GOP forcing Al Franken to wait months before he was made a senator, GOP replacement for Ted Kennedy after his death), passage wasn't possible. GOP obstructionism is exactly why Obamacare isn't a better law than it is.

Exactly this.

Congress holds the real power no?
So this whole campaign for change (Trump) is weird to me as you have a Republican Congress again probably consisting of more then half the same people like the previous one.
Can't congress decide their agenda on their own?
Are their any good links to what Congress can do to prevent President decisions and what the President can do to block Congress.

Also it's always very funny to me to see americans complain about taxes/gas prices (http://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/).

Ref the ongoing debate over the US healthcare system, I had this article drawn to my attention over the weekend - might make some interesting reading for both sides

http://time.com/4649914/why-the-doctor-takes-only-cash/

@cola_colin

I can only suggest you inform yourself before discussing these topics by first reading the actual executive order. Notice that it lists only 7 specific countries. This is not a ban on muslims, nor is it a ban on muh brown people, nor is it without good reason, nor is it close to the mass deportations and gays in concentration camps that was cried about like chicken little. Did he ban Indonesia, India, Bangladesh, Nigeria, Turkey, Egypt? etc etc. Want me to go on? There are a lot of muslim countries all over the world that weren't 'banned'.

Syria, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Sudan, Yemen, Somalia. I wonder why these 7 countries in particular? What is the shared common factor? Could it be that these are the countries listed by Obama as security risks to America? An awful lot of them seem to coincide with American military foreign intervention during the last 8 years. Could it be that these countries are incredibly destabilized and don't hold America in any high regard? Could it be that people from these countries don't share the same values as western culture, such as rule of law, dignity of the individual, gay rights, and womens rights? Could it be that people from these countries tend strongly towards sharia law and seek to institute it with violence if necessary? If you think it's xenophobic to not want to tolerate cultural values that are inherently anti liberal, then I'm a proud xenophobe.

A mere 120 days temporary suspension for immigration from a small number of very specific middle eastern war torn countries, and you can't help but trumpet and echo a rather silly moral outrage. If this was true xenophobia, we would expect either long term/permanent bans on a much larger scale, or significantly reduced immigration quotas that deviate from the bipartisan status quo implemented by previous administrations both democrat and republican.

You're incredibly blind to reasonable evidence because of your employment of emotional decision making based merely on an unreasoned feeling of disgust. It was this very same method of decision making that led to very real discrimination against gays, gypsies, jews etc. under a political regime in your country not that long ago. Gays in particular are still being thrown off roofs and stoned to death in Islamic countries. Emotions can guide us, but they can also blind us. Understand that not everyone wants to go the way of Germany and it isn't very mature of you to just invoke the magic words of 'racism', 'bigotry', and 'xenophobia' at every turn.

And using bayes theorem doesn't really mean anything if your input premises are fundamentally flawed. I suggest you look up some material by Sam Harris, who is religiously anti-trump, on the problem of terrorism and the real systematic threat of Islamic culture and law to liberal western societies in our modern era. One needs to learn how to hold long short relative value positions. Drill down on the issue, go long on the good, go short on the bad. Totally unrestricted immigration is not the only position one can have.

Either way, you can believe what you want. Reality in the end doesn't much care for delusions so I won't be pushing this issue further. The objective facts are before you, it is up to you to deal with them in a responsible manner.

@Corgiarmy
We debate american immigration policy because it's the plate off of which the real battle globally against authoritarian regressive left ideology is waged. America chooses of it's own accord to temporarily stop people from violent areas of the world from coming into their house until they can better vet who they are letting through the door, and the whinies try to spin this into another one of their racist narratives though they aren't even American. It's hypocritical, self contradictory, and just lazy thinking to the core, which is obvious to see from their lack of outrage at Muslim countries banning Israelis from entering.

They've constructed a house of cards that I cannot wait to see fall. More and more people are waking up to their horse dung. And if Trump really is the doom of America, only they are to blame for chasing decent people there in the first place. The same pattern is repeating across Europe.

I just want to know where all these protesters come from at such short notice. I can think of much better things to do with my Saturday than spend longer than I have to at an airport.

Despite having been quite politically active, I've only ever been to one protest in my life - and even that I would imagine is more than the vast majority of people. Who on earth are these lot?

wow
You are lost in a very dark place elodea.
Reading what you are writing makes me feel a mixture of disgust and being sorry for you.

Not quite sure what to write anymore except describe my feelings really. Your arguments make no sense. You're a master of ignorance and over generalization and you don't even realize it.

The pinnacle of hypocrisy really, especially in this context.
What exactly do you seem to think western values even ARE? Cause you just threw most of them out of the window. At least the ones I am aware of.

The part of America I still respect.
The most important values of America are being undermined and these people are standing up to it.

Interesting article. I just looked up what a knee replacement costs in Germany. ~8000 to 16000€, covered by standard insurance 100%

EDIT:
On other news. LOL
As elegant as a bull in a china shop. The official "one step forward, two steps back"-order.
Gonna make America a great place for sure.

I think the debated between Cola Colin and Ebodea is funny. Most Americans wouldn't know or care what your talking about!

I do know the US healthcare system is extremely flawed. Again, family members with serious conditions have been harmed.

Does Europe have problems with insurance companies not paying for need medical services? In the US we do. Need a kidney removed for because of cancer... nope insurance won't cover it because its not "medically necessary" and the the surgeon was out of network at an in-network hospital. You can afford the $170,000 surgery tho right?

In Europe, does the insurance companies tell the physicians which drugs to administer? Seems backwards right? But yes, insurance will deny any drug they don't think will help the patient. Its true, I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't see it happen. Our physcian wanted to use nivolumbad a cancer medicine, but he wasn't allowed until they tried a cheap drug called sutient and avastin, two other cancer medicines with poor results and terrible side-effects (non of the drugs are designed for kidney cancer but sutient and avastin are $10,000 to $20,000 a dose cheaper).

I can go on. But my lunch break is short.

People should care more about politics
But yeah sure, I expect most people not to care about some discussion in some forums somewhere.

I am sorry to hear that.

How do you call someone who discriminates against people because of their resolution to not think rationally? Call me that

If I interview someone for a job and he argues anything based on the arbitrary writings of a guy 1000 years ago, I'll show him the door.
I really think that people that don't use their minds to think but only to remember imposed ideas have done no good to this world.
Any flavor of religion that opposes rationally is bad.
I've met not very intelligent people or people who had never wondered about something to whom you can talk. The worse are those who shut you up with religious arguments instead of looking around.
Inmigration is a great tool rich countries have to improve their population but with no filter or even laws that give advantage to "bad" people; they are doing it wrong.

Please don't call me names and keep your feelings where they belong.