The Politics Thread (PLAY NICELY!)

Hehe.
Like reading tea leaves.

Lol.

Fascism is defined as:

an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

He isn't textbook fascist at all. You just made up that crap and shitposted it.

If he's not successful at all, how the hell is he not as broke as Kanye West?
Success is always preceded by failure. His failures make him experienced. That's how we learn. He may not be the best businessman, but he's better than Bernie Sanders.

"He just had enough money to start with and the willingness the screw over taxpayers if necessary."

Just? He made that money, bro. His willingness to screw over taxpayers is shared by every politician in the race, including Sanders.

Trump sure is a rather authoritarian politician, he sure is nationalistic and he sure is part of the right wing.

Starting from a nice base of 200 million making more is a lot easier than going from zero up, you seem to disregard that.
If you start at zero and make a mistake you're already in the negative and too much negative means you'll be out of business forever.
If you start at 200 million you can make a lot of mistakes, waiting until that big breakthrough.
That concept shouldn't be hard to understand.
Sure he certainly did some good trades as well, but the fact just is: He didn't have very hard starting conditions, so you can't give him all that much credit for making even more money.

Personally I'd even say having 200 million as a start and yet going and giving your all to make more money is a clear sign of having fallen to massive greed. Imho if you have 200 million on your hand there is no point in working to make more anymore, no single human has a real use for that much money, someone who is as aggressive as Trump to still make even more is just greedy. Making money becomes a self-purpose to such people.

That's so generic and baseless that I'm not even going to bother answering this idiocy. I think you are trolling me here. If not, I can explain exactly where you went wrong. But I'd rather not.

His ROI is way better than mine or yours, Colin. He knows his stuff. He doesn't always succeed, and he does have a cushion, but that doesn't mean he's some greedy ******* out to steal money from everyone else by gaming the system. Judge a person by his actions, not their assumed intentions after the fact. Maybe he had a greater ambition in life - like becoming President. Or owning his own fast food chain. Let the man accomplish what he can with what he is given. That's the American way of life. A man is not greedy for simply owning a lot of money and attempting to gain more by using the system. That's the attitude of government leeches.

The definition you stated sure is rather general, but I would most certainly describe Trump as authoritarian, nationalistic and part of the right wing. Those are pretty hard facts. Do you think otherwise?

You really don't understand the concept that with 200 million as starting money it is much easier.
The more money you have the easier it gets to get more, I wonder if there are studies that show how it scales. I'd bet it scales exponential.

And I do judge people by their actions. Trumps most recent actions mainly revolve around making insane statements.
And I stand by saying that people who go and found one company after the next while already having 200 million are rather questionable. I mean sure maybe he really is just really in love with that work of setting up companies, but I find that hard to believe.

WOW. You are serious. Okay.
He isn't authoritarian because he doesn't want to centralize the powers of our government in the Executive branch.
He isn't nationalistic because he doesn't want to limit States rights.
The right wing condition is certainly true, but he isn't extreme right wing. Extreme right wing is Fascism, extreme left is Communism.

First off, I did some research. According to https://www.quora.com/Did-Donald-Tr...ncrease-his-net-worth-at-an-unremarkable-rate , he inherited 200k straight out of college, and only got the 40m boost from his father in 99. To top it off, he has barely outgrown the market since then. He still has a better ROI than either myself or you, Colin. In addition, you assume that his father taught him to be a lazy, content piece of ****. In reality, he probably taught him ambition and installed a desire to make money or work for his keep.

Again, you saying that it is GREEDY to make MORE money after (in your estimation) already having enough is wrong. You speak like a true leech.

America has enough leeches. Bernie is another of that breed, and we are done with it.

You have pretty extreme definitions of those words.
I'd say he is authoritarian, for example he made a statement that Apple should unlock that iPhone for the FBI and he *googles...* also said he rather "ers on the side of security", agreeing to reimplementing the patriot act to snoop in on your phone calls.
That's pretty much authoritarian to me and more than I want by far.

Wikipedia says this about nationalism: "Nationalism is a shared group feeling in the significance of a geographical and sometimes demographic region seeking independence for its culture and/or ethnicity that holds that group together."

Trumps motto is "Make America great again". He is taking positions against immigrants, other religions and other nations (this "beat" china/whoever else stuff") basically against anybody outside of the "shared group" Wikipedia talks about.
So that is nationalism. I don't like nationalistic positions btw.

And "extreme" right wing?
Well that depends on your viewpoint, what you mean by extreme. From my German point of view most republicans are pretty extreme. Remember politics is a little different here, as the graph Stuart posted a few pages earlier shows:
US politics:

(also notice how they rate Trump the most authoritarian republican among the candidates...

Germany:


So remember my own position is around the the green dot on the German one. All republicans are even worse positioned than the AfD or the CDU and those are pretty bad in my view already.
To me all your republican candidates are extreme. According to this diagrams they are more extreme than any political party I could vote for around here by a good margin and from the things I read about the candidates I tend to agree.

Now overall he probably isn't at the most extreme possible end of any of these concepts, but he is overboard with all of them to me.

We live in such different worlds. It is fascinating and scary at the same time

I find it very ... interesting that you say "leech" to somebody who thinks there is no point in going all out crazy to make more money when already owning dozens of millions of dollars.
Accumulating money basically means you take from the world and put in your bank account, isn't that more like a like leech?
And why would I assume his father taught him to be a lazy? All I can say that his father at minimum wasn't successful at teaching him the moral values my father taught me.

From your own source:

The number 200 million also floats about in your source. I also generally trust the German news site that my original source was.

at this point mered you're contradicting yourself on a constant basis. you'll say anything to defend Trump and those things together don't make sense.

Tatsu, unless you have a specific point to bring to this discussion, there is no reason to speak. Please don't make me laugh. I need to finish my pizza.

"I find it very ... interesting that you say "leech" to somebody who thinks there is no point in going all out crazy to make more money when already owning dozens of millions of dollars."

Excuse me? Who is he leeching this money from? He created his wealth from the substantial amount of money he already had. He didn't let it sit in the bank and compound, although his net gains are about the same. He also didn't steal it from someone. So he's not a leech. Leeches claim that the rich already have enough money and should give it to others because they obviously don't need it. It's a bullshit argument that covers up the jealousy the leeches have for the successful. I can quote Ayn Rand all day here, but you could also just go read Atlas Shrugged.

My source was quoting number ranges that were quite varied, which implies that they don't have any concrete numbers on Trumps income or initial inheritance. A lot of that is guesswork.

Your governments went down the Socialist path decades ago. America is still proudly waving the Capitalist flag, though many Democrats are viciously fighting to tear it down. Thus it is no surprise that America's right wing appears more extreme than your right wing. To us, your right wingers are moderates.

surely you realize this means your view on politics is a reduced spectrum.

Well I myself would not take the word "leech" into my mouth about this topic, but where does his money come from? Money doesn't just magically appear. It was taken from somebody.

Yes indeed, at least you agree we're seeing this from vastly different perspectives.

Before this thread happened I never realized just how bad the damage to the US from the cold war propaganda really was. Well the sample size obviously is way too small, but you're really into this "socialists are evil" stuff.
But yeah I guess it was decades ago. In fact more than one hundred years ago. Otto von Bismarck introduced the mandatory social security insurance stuff in Germany starting in the year (yes I looked it up, but I did at least know what name to google xD) 1883.

Way more than one hundred years ago.
Where is the supposed damage that it was supposed to cause?
I can't see where these "socialist ideas" seem to have caused damage to Germany.
What did cause damage in the meantime were things like racism and nationalism. Extreme right wing movements. (Yes definitely way more right wing than people like Trump at least I hope, now I regret using extreme before, I am running out of adjectives xD)
But the social system? Not at all.

Now on a self reflection part:
Thinking about this stuff about German history I totally acknowledge that a part of the reason I have the moral values and political views I have most certainly is the stuff I was taught as a child in school. In German lessons as well as history lessons the topic of Hitler-Germany is a pretty big one in German schools and my distaste for right-wing nationalistic views is most certainly related to the fact that I was taught "Look these right wing nationalistic people took over Germany by doing lots of hate speech. They then proceeded to cause one of the most horrible crimes in human history. We must never forget what went wrong back then."
On another account the fact that Bismarck introduced the social security things was also part of my history lessons and in them it was presented as a good thing as well. "It is good that everyone gets to see a doctor when they have to" is pretty easy to accept logic.

I realize this probably has created some pretty deep links in my head that cause red alarm bells to go off when I see "right wing" people making claims I classify as nationalism and racism..

One top of that I had a grandfather who also told me about the time back then, his experiences from the war made him so extremely anti-war he even looked pretty distasteful at games like PA.


Do you acknowledge the sources your views come from? The reasons why they were provided to you when you were young and easy to influence? How did your political views and morals form? Can you self reflect about that?

Yep so I'll stay on the most trustworthy source, which isn't a random "ask questions to anybody"-site. Might as well link to a forums like this one as a source

Jealousy is not part of my line of reasoning or argumentation.

Mered:

Do you not agree that having money makes it easier to make more?

IRK this is surreal.

It´s impossible to keep up with this thread. It´s all over the place

Ofc I do. It's not relevant to the discussion, tho.

Lol. Right. Yeah, that's not how the economy works. Wealth is created, not taken. Money flows like a river, it doesn't pile up. Creating wealth means you bake your own pie, while you seem to think that he took a part of the pie from others.

Yes, I can. I know exactly why I have these views, but I was also told on a regular basis to look this **** up for myself. And you know what? For the most part, the evidence has lined up with everything I was taught by my parents. Socialism drains a country of its will to go on and encourages the status quo, while the free market pushes people to find a better way. One is a comfortable pillow fort, and the other is a wild, but fair, wilderness. One has the potential to hold our hands from cradle to grave, while the other encourages us to look to the stars and dream big. I know which one I'm subscribed to.

Then why did you bring up greed? It's not relevant to Trump's campaign. The only reason for you to bring up greed is because you envy his wealth or do not understand why he would need any. Either is poisonous to a successful free market society.

Having a differing point of view from your own is not a reason to run around shouting troll. Grow up

Were do the ingredients of the pie come from?

The thing is just that your opinion isn't just different. It defies anything I believe in.

That's a nice speech, but pretty empty-arguments wise. You still seem to totally disregard that there is something between the "wild wilderness" and total communism.

I brought up greed in the context of the question of why somebody who has definitely enough money to live a very comfortable live still pursues so many things that clearly only aim to make more money.
Sure if you believe money is magically created by working people and not taken from society instead that doesn't make sense. If however you believe that one who accumulates big amounts of money takes that money away from *somewhere* it does make sense.

He made them himself. You don't take them from others. That's not how the economy works. Wealth flows like a river. Someone wealthy up top will create employment opportunities for those with a skillset to match. Unless you are royalty or a politician, your wealth trickles down to those below you on the economic ladder.

Socialism is just Communism for Idiots. The only real difference is that its proponents are too chicken to call for a revolution and instead go for the *lie and steal* strategy. Socialism is poison to the health of a community, while regulated capitalism gives rise to great nations.

Money isn't magically created by working people. The movement of money is what drives our economy. And, as I've mentioned before, money doesn't accumulate at the feet of the wealthy while they nickel and dime the dimwitted public. That's not anywhere close to how the actual world works.

This isn't about *belief*, Colin - this is about facts. Money is not stolen from the poor every time someone like Donald Trump makes a million dollars. Wealth does not change hands - it is created by those with the willingness to work for it, or the brilliance to reach for it.

If you continue to ignore these facts, you will never, EVER be able to rise above the general public and achieve financial independence. You'll be too busy complaining about the rich people instead of making yourself one.

Right back at you. But I'm actually willing to discuss this and argue a point, unlike everyone else on your side of the aisle. Respect for your opponent is something you all sorely lack.

The spreading of wealth isn't perfect but it's not that bad right now. The majority of people in poverty made choices to get there. The majority of wealthy people made choices to get where they are.