The Ethics Of Mods In Competitive Play

We can't say bolo is a digital recreation of a real life tank? Nuke isn't the digital recreation of nukes? Robots are the imagination of how these things would work in a pa universe?

Chess on a computer doesnt matter. It's still chess.

I don't see your point.

I think it is a legitimate point that *if the developers intention* has always been for mods to play a front row and centre stage role in the game, then it stands to reason they should also have a place in the competitive scene as well.

As for Chess- whilst classic 'on a board' chess obviously isn't designed to support computers / modding and so on, the creator of a computer based chess game could well have developed it to allow this kind of thing- and if they decide they want various tools to be available during competition on *their interpretation of chess*, then it would be fair in that context.

Many view the use of UI mods in PA as unfair as the modifications aren't part of the base game they can't be part of the base games vision. I'd personally say that is inaccurate- Uber made a point to build mod support into the whole game so that the community can build their own tools and support the game themselves. A small studio like Uber isn't going to be able to hit every option, every tool and so on and they know this- so they've put their valuable time into a framework so we can contribute (within limits).

As other have observed, over development many of the most popular ideas have been incorporated into the base game (I assume to make them more readily accessible to all players). The original ladder system was based on a mod after all.

I think it's short sighted to now say we don't want mods as a whole in the competitive scene given the history and the base level support (and the fact right at the very start of the *original Kickstarter pitch* mods were mentioned as a headline feature, this isn't something that got tagged on later). That isn't to say that there aren't some potential downsides, and that every mod is fair be default. If there are some mods that enough people feel ruin the competitive foundation between players then we (the wider PA community) need to look at the individual cases and act on those specifically, rather than have a high level discussion about PA, mods, gaming, sports, life and the meaning of everything

Edit: From the *original front page of the Kickstarter pitch in 2012*:
"Advanced Modding features
Create new units, gametypes, maps and planet archetypes. Run your own servers with your own sets of units and game modes."

https://www.kickstarter.com/project...nnihilation-a-next-generation-rts/description

I was going to say, that I don't see yours.

What does a real tank have to do with a video game?

My point is the game of chess is a very old physical game that was not designed to allow mods. There is no UI (I mean unless you count the physical board and pieces as a UI) to mod. Having a program tell you what moves to make would be maybe equivalent to a server side mod that got the AI to play for you. No one is arguing for that.

If Ubermap gave permanent vision of the entire map you would be correct.. but it doesn't. Its pretty much a mini map that shows all 64 squares at the one time as opposed to 18. (could argue 36 as the time to look at map you could look at a pip or what not). Doesn't make any decision other than oh there was a mex there that I scouted but didn't see or have my alerts set up to see this.

I think this is the best argument for the modder crew. Uber's intentions are all that really matters here.

I am not disagreeing that mods shouldn't be allowed. But saying they don't prove a competitive edge? They can make a difference in a close game with this analogy even with the world best players.

My point is even though chess is a physical game. You can play it on a computer. You can play it with mods. Its still chess the game doesn't change because its on a computer. I doubt the creators of chess cared if it was modded and how that will affect the typical game. This doesn't matter. The use of these mods could have won several world championship games when grand master made their blunders.

EDIT: AI Don't select your move. It tells you if a piece will be taken at a negative(ie pieces are numbered by value)

Ubermaps is a great mod. If I am using it in a game, I might see something that I otherwise wouldn't which is the purpose of the mod. I might see the ghost of a fab or two dox running towards a metal field. Its a tool to help the player win the game. Is it even if I have this mod and the other player doesn't? Probably not.

We can cheat ourselves. We can say it won't change the outcome of most games. But the difference between winning and losing a competitive match is so small. A 7 metals per second here and there might make all the difference.

Yeah I've not been trying to say there is no benefit to them (I think with some it's inconsequential but others are more powerful). To be honest I think most of the pro-mod people aren't really saying that either. I think though that the benefits outweigh the negatives as a whole (even if there are a few specific examples that are problematic).

I'd just like to focus the attention on the specific examples- whereas it strikes me we've wound up in the 'everything tarred with the same brush' scenario.

I also think maybe the solution is simply to try and help educate newer players to what's available? Why prevent people using something really good like Ubermap if they want, when instead we should be teaching new players of it's existence. I don't want to have a special competitive advantage over other players, however I also don't want to stop people like @cola_colin and (ironically) @elodea doing their thing and making mods that benefit the game. Ubermap in particulate is a tool squarely aimed at competitive play imo- I mean your not usually dealing with small raiding parties from 5 different directions in a more casual game like you are in competitive, which is the kind of scenario that Ubermap would prove worthwhile.

However even if people disagree with me on that and decide we shouldn't use it on the ladder for reasons already stated, I'd be happy to accept that for that specific mod. Any other issues need to be addressed on a case by case basis.

Yes you can play it on a computer, but the ruleset which defines chess doesn't allow you to have a computer play for you. Which is what I was getting at. You can play it on a board, or you can play it on a computer, it doesn't matter, but if an AI is suggesting moves for you, this would be no different than having a grandmaster sitting next to you and making move recommendations. Both of those in competitive play would be considered cheating.

I dont think anyone agrees that its not an advantage, but if both players used the same chess mod then all is fine. if one player isnt using it, goes hey how did you not make any mistakes, ah i was using this mod, havnt you heard of it. then the other guy doesnt install it, then its his fault.

Maybe Uber could include this on the front page of PA titan ^^^. Mods are allowed in all phases of the game please check them out at PAMM!!! They are free. For instructions see PA/ PA titan forum. Might help new players a bunch.

I am still unsure of Free energy. I am afraid it will lead to too much automation of players eco. But until its released and I can use it I can't condemn it too much.

Blunder alert doesn't pick your move. It use a value system for units to be captured within the next 3-5 moves or so (if the value is negative by a certain amount blunder alert will appear). You can lose a game and not have a blunder alert and win a game with many blunders. It purely an information modification that doesn't recommend moves.

why did I read that whole paragraph with the voice of an 1950 Londonian movie announcer ?

So it doesn't actually make the move for you, but it still recommends one. I think my analogy of having another person recommending moves to you still applies. In a chess competition, I assume this would be considered cheating. I'm not familiar with chess competitions so I can't guarantee it though.

Edit: spelling.

Holy shiiet man! +1!

It doesn't recognize good moves. It doesn't tell you good moves. If you would have a mod that did that why play? The mod should be playing.

I'm really confused now, what is the point of blunder detector if it doesn't give a recommendation?

Unless you are saying that it gives a recommendation but it isn't necessarily a good one.

If that's what you are saying then I don't think that changes anything. If you are getting recommendations from someone sitting next to you in a chess tournament, it wouldn't matter if they were good or bad recommendations, it will would be against the rules.

A blunder alert doesn't play the game. Its a dumb program looking at all possible moves to take your better pieces.

How this would work for PA. You have a mod that alerts you when you see boombots from an opponent and you don't the counter. The alert would go off..well I don't want to be boombot sniped. I'd better get out everything that kills boombots. Or you see a cluster of 20 bombers. I don't have any anti-air... an alert that a bomber snipe might happen, I better do something about that. Or an alert for t2 buildings. I don't have t2.. I should do something about that. Enemy starts working on a titan... Alert alert danger Will!

This would be the equivalent for PA to the best of my knowledge. It seems simple, I know, but you would be surprised in the heat of a match how much gets lost.

Some of pa modders could do it in their sleep.

In my dreams I can do way more than that

I actually believe you do!