The Ethics Of Mods In Competitive Play

I will follow no rule I do not agree with if there is no explicit obligation imposed onto me.

I find no mod so far is liable for a ban.

the fact that the realm is unanimous about it (if they are at all) isn't a factor of everyone being unanimous about it.

as you can see everyone here isn't unanimous about it.

just because the US government thinks it should wage war on Irak does not means it's citizens wish the same thing.

just because...

you get the picture.

furthermore I donnot think I am missing anything.

I have been debating this debate long before it ever came to this forum.

perhaps you are not aware but this particular thread is not particularly new to the simpro RTS scene. FAF had it's own outburst awhile back. I'm suspecting the topic was not lost on the TA and Spring community either.

Both sides are correct.

There is no rule against them. They are public (I think). They make the game easier and possibly more fun.

I like mods, but I am afraid they are becoming or will become too advantageous.

Competitive play must be even or the game itself is a joke. Where is the fun in winning at chess with blunder alert on vs someone not using it. Mods like free energy, auto builds, and uber maps all are amazing mods, but are factually an advantage in the same way. The mods don't change the standard rules of the game, but you have more information then your opponent (uber maps) or less work to do then your opponent (free energy, auto builds).

with your seemingly incomplete knowledge about mods I find this a topic of interest.

could you explain to us why you think this and to what degree of certainty?

I will layer my wisdom down upon thee! But I am at work . So later buddy.

Don't bother. I'm done arguing with tatsu in this instance because he's obstinate about his side and refuses to see reason. There's an ulterior motive here somewhere. Arguing with idiots is pointless.

Tatsujb is adamant about his opinion. Nothing wrong here. He is merely trying to express his opinion. Whether or not he is shouting it to the point of drowning out other opinions is another matter.

Rules will come eventually and a line will be drawn for mods. Tatsujb clearly wants the ultimate rule of no rules on which mods should be banned. He has defended it well and his argument is valid.

The issue is that it isn't how the majority of the players feel. Many people do believe certain mods should be banned for the sake of changing the game too much where it may become less fun. This will go in circles because what is fun is different for each person. Evidently, a rule will be put in place that may make the game slightly less fun for people like tatsujb with respect to competitive matches. Hopefully it doesn't take away ALL their fun.

Again, I don't think the line will be that far off on what is deemed fair while still keeping everyone satisfied, based upon these discussions.

So back to this...


I was asked if I am qualified to discuss mods in competitive play based on knowledge. Well, I have played quite a few ranked games (mid to high plat in both games). I have used mods and I have use vanilla gameplay for both PA and PA titans. Some UI mods I have tried off the top of my head include hotbuild, ubermaps, infinite build, softlanding, autobuild and so on. I only use infinite build right now. You are right, I don't know two licks about creating mods nor does that matter because the question is do mods create a competitive advantage. So if anything that makes me completely unbias and knowledgeable on this topic.


Free energy is the mod used in the discussion and which I based the quote you copied from. You start automating the economy you could have a rather large advantage (I think the mod could be cool so don't stop working on it).


A couple thing to be clear on:

1. These mods alone aren't going to change a gold player to plat or a plat player to uber. They are not that strong. Nor I doubt we will ever have mods that strong. Please don't prove me wrong.
   
   
2. They are not illegal. I do not consider them cheating. At this point, I think its basically impossible to cheat.
   
   
3. Mods are awesome!!! I really wish my computer could handle ubermaps because that mod is my favorite. That said I don't want to lose any of mods or harm the mod community.
   

So... the framing of the question hurts the case for the players who are in favor of mods. Does modding create a competitive advantage? Yes, I can layer this on you if you wish, but I think we would agree competitive players wouldn't use mods if they didn't give some type of competitive advantage (I know there are a few exceptions of great players using vanilla). Heck personal experience, I was stuck in high gold in the old PA. I started using infinite build and I moved up to plat pretty quickly. So from personal experience it made some difference albeit not sure how much because this type of thing isn't measurable.

just my usual nitpicky self.

I think the sentence you where going for there is : "but I think we would agree UI and apm enhancing mods wouldn't be as popular if they didn't provide some type of competitive advantage?"

not sure I agree there though :

mods currently considered ban-worthy by the almighty one :


mods that are okay :


anyways good post. but overall I think it lacks substance.

I think I would like for you to lay the knowledge about mods providing a competitive advantage on me please.

also I wasn't implying lack of knowledge about how to mod but about mods and their gradients in general but apparently you do seem to know some.

Hi let me tell you my mixed position about this,

I like the desing of PA. There is a server that runs the game and then some clients that send valid imput. If the server isn't compromised the game is fair.

The UI mods alter the clients so we could consider that each player may be playing with a different client. Still the server guarantees that the game rules are not broken because it won't accept any illegal imput.

So at first I'm ok with mods, BUT I'm sure that the best client to play PA wouldn't be the nicer looking.
Cola Colin talked about steroids and that it wasn't a valid argument against the use of mods, but I see a kind of analogy with the look and feel of the game client getting lost because of mods. Using mods won't hurt your health but they could hurt your gaming experience.

Uber map is quite a big step into converting the awesome 3D planet experience into a 2D icons war. In the scenario that a mod replaced completely the main canvas, players would have to choose between playing the 2D **** and being able to give their best or play the pretty looking vanilla and lose.

So I guess my opinion is mods but not all of them. And how to control it? Gentlemen rules! (the ones that keep me - and not many more- from assisting with bombers)

what the hell is everybody's obsession with this?!?


all the sudden it's become a HUUUGE problem.....

long gone are the days of Minecraft where people chanted unilaterally "Gameplay over Graphics!" (If you remember, it was the same chant that was made about PA's aesthetics.) Now it's all "Graphics over Gameplay! "

the worst part is this argument is completely out of context here. How are the 3D planets hurt by UberMap? is it on top of it?

How are we not ALREADY playing so called "icon wars"? I see icons without any mods personally.

2D!!!!! Icon war. You missed the 2D. I mean why bother in 3Dgraphics with sooo much work if people want a 2 color 2D game. I tried to play dwarf fortress but was too ugly for me, maybe I'm not the only one who thinks like that.

Gameplay includes the whole gaming experience so don't talk about that.

"the worst part is this argument is completely out of context here. How are the 3D planets hurt by UberMap? is it on top of it?"

You misunderstand my words, am I a bad writer or you a bad reader? It has nothing to do with planets nor with the uber map so read that again please.

I didn't start layering. I was afraid of the too long didn't read syndrome and then I decided it would be more fun to play instead of writing another very long post. Maybe tomorrow or the following day.

In the end, it is ubers responsibility to decide if a mod is allowed on ranked play. They make the rules. It's their league. Has uber reached out to the mod community about types allowed in ranked?

If a 3rd party is hosting a tournament its their responsibility to decide their rules.

I will keep using mods that are allowed. The are free and available to anyone who wants them. Its not my fault if an opponent doesn't want to use mods and ignorance of mods isnt reason not to have them. I am nervous about eco managing mods bc they may be too strong, but I cannot fully judge them until I play with it.

Wow. At first this discussion was all reasonable and friendly.

Then I read the last few pages.

Jesus guys, calm down a little...

It's Mered4 getting mad about something that other forumers strongly disagree with him on; this is always the result when this happens.

Thats what happens if you continiously keep ignoring more then half of the arguments that are there. Elodea basicly tackled all arguments already anyway. Appearantly its also really difficult for the pro-modded community to see differences between vanilla and modded while for some magical reason its pretty easy for everyone else.

To answer the people who dare to ask what mods give unfair advantages:

- Look if the mod can give any advantage over vanilla. Then i think everything that is even the slightest bit superior in ANY way over vanilla is unfair. Hotbuild is one i don't count under it because it doesn't really give you an advantage since vanilla is also pretty good.

I really think you are all making too much fuss about it.
Even the unfair mods won't make you a uber player if you don't got skills.

Sure there could be a bit of unfairness but I don't think that will be the biggest decider on who wins or loses.
Pretty sure these have more impact then mods.
- not knowing how to play the game
- being a dumbass
- having a bad day
- being drunk
- being on drugs
- being sleepy
- game performance
- pathing bugs..
- distractions like pets jumping on your keyboard
- game crashing so you'll have to rejoin
- falling of your chair
- ...

We are always talking about the competitive scene. And I have to say I haven't met people that play this competitive that don't know about mods.

Sure we can all agree on what mods shouldn't be used. But it is just not enforceable, checking every ranked/tournament game is totally unrealistic.
Even the anti-doping agencies can't prevent doping in sports.

The only outcome I see is uber restricting the new api's that made ubermap possible, but that would be a shame.
So I rather inform people about mods cause that's the best thing we can do.

you guys seriously don't get the meaning of subjective do you.

yeah. yeah.

dream big : https://forums.uberent.com/threads/the-ethics-of-mods-in-competitive-play.70430/page-6#post-1112202

none of you can hold the same list.

It adds to the difficulty of me being able to distinguish vanilla from modded that vanilla is composed of 20 something mods and the number continues to grow.

Steroids won't make you or me an Olympic athlete. They are still illegal because they are considered unfair.