Naval has amounted to sub spam.

Subs destroy anything. They are faster, shoot under water, can't be hit by most naval units.

Narwhals can't hit subs.

Orcas have a weaker torpedo launcher and cost more.

0/10

Orcas also have 3x the HP and can shoot land units. Still, I don't really like current Narwhal/Orca/Sub balance.

So why mod discussions?

Because Kiwi obviously wants me to fix it.

The key is making piranhas viable in ship to ship. Give them a torpedo launcher and transfer damage off of their guns to their new torpedos. Change the rock paper scissors to Piranhas > Barracudas > Orcas > Piranhas.

Oh crap my bad. It can be moved.

Derp

(end of the week, not much sleep. Brain impaired. Kiwi is slowly dying.

you forgot about the hoovers and kaiju

ah well the hoover vaccums can't do that much when there's narwhals or orcas, and kaijus are just rare.

or can they?

Maybe in mass. But per metal? I don't know i've never tested it.

perhaps a new unit to give a ship a area of effect torpedo that is slow firing and easily countered with other ships apart from subs (low health but high defence against torpedo's).
If u really want it cool you can give him an anti torpedo launcher.

On maps with naval I always try and tech to kiju, those things wreck everything if you can provide sufficient air cover.

another option could be to give the t1 hover tanks low damage torpedo attacks...

Current balance loop is:
Submarine > Ocra > Narwhal > T1 bomber > Submarine
Submarine > T2 ships > torpedo launcher > submarine


The submarine is fine for me.
It is a unit which can only target the water units, just like the fighter can only target the air unit.
If the submarine can't give the player the water superiority, then nobody will build the submarine anymore.
Since the orca can attack the land and island, I prefer to let the submarine be the water superiority units.
Otherwise, it is just to let the orca be the water superiority units in early game.
But I think it is another game style to let orca be the water superiority units in early game.
There is a new balance loop is:
Orca > submarine > battleship and T2 ships > Orca.

Why not just turn naval into elodea's battleships mod, thet at least no one will complain I like the balance in the mod that makes gunboat > submarine

I don't see a problem. If you want to micro, send your Orcas in first to block enemy torpedoes, and keep your subs behind the wall they create to do the damage. Otherwise, the hard counter is bombers.

One thing that should definitely be fixed is that the t2 bomber (Wyrm) does not say in its tool-tip that it targets undersea units; however, it does: http://pa-db.com/unit/bomber_heavy

Oh, wait. I think my quote-button is broken ...

It isn't perfect - as I said my quote-button is broken and just messes around with those unit names - but I think there is something in there to think about.

Yeah, kinda agree on this. Since Titans I've failed massively on naval, which must means there's some kind of imba involved ;-). Still subs atm are the way to go.

Naval seems completely broken to me. The winning tactic seems to be spamming Torpedo lancers with first builder, and ignore naval completely, unless the entire planet is water. T1 cannot push through torpedos, and bumblebee cannot destroy them (2000 HP!!!), and if you have some orcas, drifters are useless.
If you build walls before it, it is game over for any attacking fleet. T2 is not cost effective against it, and you need to micro it, with extra vision, and walls, walls, walls. It shoots to the battleship vision radius!

You do know orca's out range torp launchers yeah?

The main issue is sight range. Best way to kill torps- make loads of scout boats to sacrifice so you can use orca range, or built scout planets. Either way the torps go down without firing a shot

http://pa-db.com/compare?cat2=defense&u1=destroyer&u2=torpedo_launcher
I think your information need to be updated.
The range of Orca is 180, but the range of torpedo launcher is 200.

To blindmousehun:
I don't think it is a real problem to spam the torpedo launchers.
If you make too many torpedo launchers, you don't have the enough mobile units to expand.
And the mobile units can move and support other locations, while the defense building can't do that.
It is just like the laser turret and tanks, defense building are always stronger than units.
But the defensive building can't win the war, and they are usually overwhelming by units.

You may be in trouble when enemy make the heavy defense in the important location or near your base,
but it is the problem in scout and intelligence, and you should find and stop you enemy to do that.

In ocean map such as the Pacific, radar is very important.
And the radar should be built in multiple front lines to enlarge the effective weapon range of torpedo launcher.

About the T2 navel units, they are extremely powerful.
Every T2 navel units can destroy the torpedo launcher easily, player should use them definitively.
I believe T2 navel is very cost effective against torpedo launcher.
Since you need the T2 radar and the battleship, it is highly recommended to build the T2 navel factory faster.

Yay, lost post.
So there are at least 3 1v1 map where you have a narrow path of sea. If it is locked down with torpedos, and it is quite possible to do with the speed difference, then naval victory is completely impossible. I've just came from a 1v1. I had battleships and tier 2 subs, which never made it to the enemy, even though I had more factories, tier 2 tech, I lost on land, had to abort.
I had tier 2 naval at 15 minutes I believe.
Locking down the narrow path is too easy, and if he did that, you need to do abort plans for naval, and lock it down yourself. Battleship is 13 tier 1 torpedo, which has 26000 health, if you mix it with walls, it is not penetrable within minutes. If you build 3 battlehips, they can make 60 bolos and 13 torpedos + walls from the same metal, and you lose on land.
There is no cost effective way to clear torpedo launchers. Orca needs it's range back.