We need a defence against the Helios + Manhattan drop

I've played quite a few Titan games now and there seems to be no defence against 3 or 4 Helios dropping Manhattans for the snipe. You cannot build enough ground defences to destroy them before they drop their load.

I love both units and how they work, so do not want them changed. The only solution I can come up with is a new T2 ground orbital defence.
Details:
- Very powerful - enough to take out a Helios very quickly
- Slow to build - so not worth building early game
- Needs loading like the anti-nuke
- High eco cost - so not economically viable to cover an entire planet.

So what do you think? Are people having the same issues I am with them or is there a way to defend against them.

What about giving the thing some time before he can active the teleporter to disable the instand nuke on arrival. This will give defence some time too.

We could just make it so multiple Helios cant occupy the same space at once, and then after that, make it clear that avengers are stupidly powerful against the Helios because of their ability to be spammed.

nerf the manhattan! It's obscene how powerful that thing is

Um.
One orbital battleship will knock out the Helios - as will a few orbital railguns. It takes a lot more Avengers to murder a Helios haha

If someone really wants to invade your planet, the Helios is the way to do that. Best to start spamming umbrellas everywhere

I think giving the helios a 'chargeup' time before the teleporter comes online would solve this issue nicely.

That said, because orbital units are always visible, you can see it coming from a (few million) miles away and just, you know, move your commander and put a few bluehawks in his place.

Hide yo commander. Look at opponent and see that he is building helios - there shouldnt be any excuse for this now that all orbital is visible. Build your own orbital.

Not everything needs to be direct counter.

Helios should not have longer cooldown. It's entire point is to break through a turtled planet.

No, please don't nerf it. If you nerf it, it will never be used. It's a super high risk unit as is. Half the time it explodes before even getting it out of your base. This is an orbital mechanics problem, not a manhattan problem. The only thing the manhattan needs is to have the bug fix so it's got the same damage vs commander. Any other nerf to this unit will relegate to a non-strategic role IMO.

I believe the problem is the Manhattan, not the Helios,
and there is another thread about the same problem.
https://forums.uberent.com/threads/...s-delivers-manhattans-to-your-doorstop.70093/

My solution is to allow the anti-nuke launcher to shoot and neutralize the Manhattan, no matter it is moving on the ground or falling down from the Helios.

About the normal ground force sent by Helios can be countered by the regular ground force, which may be just near the factories. So I don't think we need to nerf the Helios.

Mostly if you lose the Helios it isn't worth getting a Manhattan down. Would it be possible to spam catapults in the current balance to kill a Helios in a single volly? I haven't tried it yet.

See my above statement, but personally I'm very strongly against letting the anti-nuke launcher target the manhattan. The manhattan is not an easy unit to get inside your enemies base, excepting this obviously OP helios strategy. Giving the helios a cool down after entering orbit like everything else makes much more sense than having the anti-nuke target the manhattan. The entire point of the unit is to be sneaky and try to take advantage of a player who isn't paying enough attention. There absolutely should not be a static weapon against the manhattan. That is what defenses, scouting, and armies are for. If you let an enemy walk a manhattan up to your front door you deserve to lose a chunk of your base.

I agree with you now,
so we should not let the anti-nuke to target the Manhattan when it is moving on the ground.
This may makes the Manhattan completely useless.

But how about only allow the anti-nuke to target the Manhattan when it is dropped down by Helios?
Does this solve the problem?

To be honest the problem is the Helios not the manhatten.

The issue is, it appears directly above your commander and immediately deposits units next to it if done by anyone with a it of skill.

Given the weakness of commanders and inability to hide them (I mean @elodea, how do you 'hide' a commander precisely?), bit doesn't matter if they drop a manhatten or vanguards or infernos, boom bots, slammers etc etc etc.

Given the health of the helios, its simply too difficult to kill it in time even with heavy defences.

I mean really all that is required is a way to inhibit the teleporter on the helios over a small area, to make drops *on top of your main base* not possible late game. The whole essence of what makes PA fun is having a big fight with lots of units. This insta-win snipe nonsense is kinda lame. I want them to invade and roll over my base with an army if I'm going to lose

You don't hide a commander. You move it out of the way.

foundout that cruisemissiles wreck helios quite hard .. catapults especialy have pretty good range ...

I think this is another problem for the orbital units.
When the orbital units transfer to another planet, they just appear in the same position simultaneously.
This makes the player who is under that position has no time to react or escape.
If you can spot the enemy commander, and you can assassinate him by spamming SXX with this trick.
The umbrella needs time to shoot down the SXX, but the commander is already killed.

I believe this problem can't get fixed by simply increasing the HP of commander in late game.
And the bubble shield won't help, either.
A T2 umbrella with area of effect may solve the problem of SXX assassination.
But it still fail to Helios drop.

I think we should add a delay time for orbital units to decelerate when reaching the planet,
then the orbital units can get to the target position later.
I make a figure for it.

Thus, the player has the time to see and react the incoming orbital units.

Or we can make even more strict restriction, such as orbital unit can only appear above the equator.
Then the orbital units must fly to the destination by itself,
and the movement takes time for orbital units to travel.
The player in Northern hemisphere need to build the umbrella in the south of his commander and base,
while the player in Southern Hemisphere build the umbrella in the north of his base.
Of course, enemy may flank and avoid going to the umbrella directly.

How about a titan mech-suit the commander can enter in late game. He would have the increased health the same as a titan?

Putting a robot into a robot?

So much sense.

I think it is also a good idea to let the Titan become a transport unit which can carry the commander.
Player can choose Ares for higher HP, or the Atlas which can easily stamp on invasive ground units from the teleporter.

An improved idea is not to display the commander inside the Titan, so enemy may need to take out multiple titans.
And other titans become the decoy commanders.

"We need a defence against the Helios + Manhattan drop"
... no we really don't. Both units are fine just the way they are.
You can see the Helios being built and transfering from another planet from a many miles away, and if they get intel on your com that is your own fault. Ultimently if this happens you are the only one to blame. Not the units.

And if they do start sending it to your planet just move your com to another location or a different planet via teleporter or astraeus(if you want to risk them knowing where you are going) (note that this is best to do before it is done building). Not that hard.

now that I look, basicly what @elodea said