Can I please talk to an official of Uber?

I am not here to scream and rant about TITANS. I just wanted to know what we could do to help the community calm down, considering the steam forums are a complete wasteland

Email support@uberent.com

It's overwhelmed so a reply might take a while.

I dont really care, I just want to resolve things within the community and maybe change something about TITANS, not neccesarily making it free, but a slight slight price discount for new people.

"I have altered the deal, pray I do not alter it any further." ~Uber

• Only acceptable outcome imo:

Titans free for all previous owners of PA. ​

How is that not lazy/greedy? Click the spoiler to find out. However...

• Trigger warning for those who disagree. Do not read the following spoiler text if you regard complaint or dev scolding itself or the position stated above as rude or offensive. If you click the spoiler text and get mad, it's your fault, I tried to shield you from it. Otherwise we should just agree to disagree and you can move on.
• If you agree however you need not read my spoiler text, you can simply sign the petition linked in my signature.

​

Spoiler: By clicking to read this spoiler text you agree to not blame me for your anger.

Ok, you asked for it

So... How is that not lazy/greedy? Because clearly Titans is an update to PA. It overtly replaces the older version. The content is already in the base game's folder and I can no longer buy just the base game. We were promised that all future updates would be free.

Titans isn't even DLC, it's an update behind a paywall.

Uber is in spirit in breech of contract. ("Spirit" since we all know the legal truth depends on who pays more for attorneys.)

Giving the update a new name and a new store page does not make it a new game in any sense beyond the realm of hair splitting technicality.

The objective of our backlash against the titans debacle for the record is not simply a free copy of titans. I will not forget this attempt even if I receive said copy. It's exactly like Steam's effort to monetize mods.

This is about not rewarding shady behavior. More importantly it's about preventing even worse in the future.

This behavior from Uber is a new low, a new innovation in the race to the bottom. It needs be opposed, because I honestly already thought we were at the bottom.

If Uber is allowed to retroactively resell a game like this by simply adding a little content and making a new store page, then what's to stop the next guy from changing the pricing model too?

Imagine if titans had a pay per month model. According to Uber it's officially an entirely new game after all. New store page, new billing. What prevented that move? Fear of us and nothing more. But if we let this happen, the next guys won't have that fear because we'd have already accepted and shown that we'll tolerate burying an old game (and all it's players) while charging anew for the fork.

If money is important and if integrity is important, then this is important.

Devs get away with what they do generally because they trivialize the gaming market entirely in the first place as a frivolous luxury indulgence item for which they can charge whatever and however they please because it's not like refusing to buy, refusing to play, will kill you.

But it's now clearly going beyond that. Gaming business practice is IP business practice and their antics have already spread to other areas. Drug and food companies routinely borrow language and practice from the development industry. Patent trollery was born here after all.

This is about principal, and drawing a line in the sand before we start pushing back. This is about getting what we paid for and holding a company to their side of the contract. If EULA/TOS boilerplate permits the unilateral retroactive editing of contracts, if purchase rights can be just taken away, if seller (or renter in this case) obligations can be arbitrarily undone, then essentially this business no longer has contractual protection for buyers. Only sellers, and that's not how business is supposed to work. And that will have atrocious consequences if we do nothing, because others in other industries will see that they might be able to get away with the same business practices, or even worse.

Uber is pulling a Vader.

Imagine a bank doing this. "Oh I'm sorry, we changed your mortgage terms. When you first clicked ok you agreed to let us change terms without notice, it was on line 654 page 8,125 subparagraph B, in latin. You also agreed to pay an opt out fee equal to your mortgage's outstanding balance plus 20%."

You see why this angers us so much?

Do not try to tell us this is trivial. I assure you, it is not. I am a member of various online activism groups, I know the consequences of not responding to this sort of market "innovation."

There is no peace to be made without reparation.

I've been mugged. I'm not "calming down" till I get my wallet back.

This isn't like roommates arguing over the dishes.

Asking us to calm down is an argument to moderation.

I see no good reason why anyone on my side should be calm. Uber knew what they were doing, that's why they gave no opportunity for discussion first. They didn't consult us at all because they already knew what would happen.

You don't warn someone you're about to rob them.

Prior to titans PA was a game in development getting slowly better all the time approaching a state of completion and parity with previous promises. After titans, PA instantly became a doomed property that literally no one could buy ever again.

And don't give me that "titans player can play the base game" argument because eventually the titan's version of base PA will be version incompatible with the actual base PA game. Eventually an update will make an engine change that base PA can't support and then we'll have three versions of the same game carving up the player base.

The only justice in all this is that if Uber stonewalls, they'll be dooming their company. (Of course that isn't a bad thing for them since they'll all just go work for different firms or start new ones rinse lather repeat.)

White knights, reply if you must, the last word will doubtlessly be yours, especially here. I don't see me spending the time to counter your claims. I fully expect silence from Uber or the ban/merge hammer, or another white knight dog pile conveniently ignored by the knighted mods.

I don't expect to ever get to play titans. And frankly at this point it would just leave a bad taste in my mouth if I did unless Uber really stepped up and showed some integrity.

The pointof this post was to go on record and stand up for what is right. I'm not silly enough to think I'll win. Life isn't a movie. There won't be a happy ending victory here for the plucky underdogs. This is more like an Ayn Rand novel where the most psychopathic and greedy will win. I have no illusions.

Good luck to you all.

I was originally going to say we should make TITANS free, I even signed the petition. I just knew that Uber would probably remove it and censor it, so when they answered i would go into more depth.

If you have something to say best say it here. Uber does read their own forums and as long as you don't plan to throw insults at them nothing will be censored.

Please define "insult" objectively for us. Many people here parse any dissent, assertion of fraud, or complaint itself as insulting.

I mean after all, being told you just defrauded people isn't exactly flattering.

Sounds to me still like a sword over our heads. I certainly don't feel to any meaningful degree free to express my dissatisfaction.

I still genuinely expect my post to be removed and to get threatening PMs or to find my account no longer works.

I would be happy to be wrong, but that's honestly what I expect and how I feel. And given what was done to my last thread and the abuse piled on me and tolerated by the staff here, can you honestly blame me?

I've written off mentally both this game and this community. That's why I can post despite feeling like I just described. Again, I hope I'm wrong. And if I am a clear objective definition of insult would kelp me feel more confident about the staying power of my posts.

For now I'm screen capping everything so I can show what lead to my ban, should one occur. I would love to feel sufficiently free to stop doing that.

tl;dr

I'm not turning this into a flamewar so I have one thing to say:

Titans is a paid expansion because Uber couldn't afford to make it free for everyone.

What they can afford is irrelevant to what they already promised and what we already are owed.

If the project is a failure then they can walk away. There are dignified options for doing this.

Funding problems did not stop them from making titans. Regardless of thier desire for more wealth, charging the existing player base twice is not an ethical solution. (I'm always genuinely shocked a little I have to explain what to me seems axiomatic ethics.)

It's what they already promised. And if they want to make more money from new customers, fine. But we of the already customers deserve what we were promised and what we paid for.

Look, it's a content update and a balance pass. Look at the files man. How does slapping a new name on it and making a new game page and locking the old one give them the right to just ignore previous promises and try to extort half the player base?

Just like when steam rammed binding arbitration down our throats, PA players have two choices. Pay up, or lose your game.

No one can possibly argue that PA is still alive. CLEARLY substantive updates for it are over, clearly attention will be aimed at the product still for sale. Especially if the argument is that Uber is penniless and limping along. (Which on its own if true would be deeply indicative of atrocious money handling.)

We should also not be divided up based on arbitrary prices or times either because Uber set those prices and made the same promises to everyone, setting aside the KS rewards.

I didn't buy PA lite. I bought the same PA that you bought. I just had the patience and the poverty to wait for a sane price tag.

They have no legitimate right (something being legal doesn't make it ethical) to insert a pay wall between existing customers and the fulfillment of previous promises.

And if you argue that that they didn't promise what titans delivers then you are just splitting hairs. PA isn't even a year old. Sure they didn't specifically promise to add a colon to the name and the word titans, etc. But again, clearly titans is in every objective qualitative sense a content update in everything but name.

What promises do you think are unfulfilled? Because experimental units were never meant to be in PA and the new balance changes are BECAUSE of the new units. Most, if not all of the other changes were added to both versions.

YOU have absolutely no right whatsoever to demand developers work for FREE.

Are expansions an imaginary concept?

If we are trying not split hairs, then we should boil down expansions down to being just a content update. Afterall, in every objective and qualitive sense, as you say, you can semantically reduce all expansions and sequels to being just a content patch in all but name.

This is what you are getting at right?
Unless of course you mean to imply that this particular case regarding PA is different, but then we would be splitting hairs. Can't do that. Okay.

Would you be happy to know that PA will continue to receive updates for as long as PA:Titans does? PA:Titans features a lot of polish with better ui and explosion effects and such. I guess I can see how that would look like a pay wall for a content patch :/ oh but wait, those improvements got applied to PA as well? And for free???? It's almost as if you don't have to pay to keep getting updates to PA. Perhaps the fact the PA is still going to get updates is splitting hairs though. Wouldn't want to confuse matters with too much scrutiny!

Firstly, those balance changes will break PA if they compensate for units we can never use.

Secondly, we have every right to demand what we paid for and were promised. If they genuinely can't provide because whatever, you'll find us very forgiving so long as you're honest. As it stands, no pity for the architects of this disaster or the silent employees who disagreed with it.

I couldn't find a single straight tone sentence in your entire reply. I'm not going to argue with my translations of your sarcasm. You'd just turn around and accuse me of putting words in your mouth.

Try again without 100% sarcasm. After all, I'm being held to a very high standard. (Points to that eager ban hammer hovering over his head.) And you aren't.

Don't you think it's a little unsporting to abuse me knowing I can't fight back? I'm already out numbered here and the refs are just itching for an excuse.

That's why the new balance isn't applied to vanilla PA.

WHAT WERE YOU PROMISED THAT YOU DIDN'T GET!? I'm getting really sick of people making vague references to "promises" without ever actually explaining themselves.


Oh and stop pretending you're some white knight in a strange and hostile land. Even your avatar is provocative. You're free to make any criticism you like as long as you're not an ******* about it. Stop pretending you're Stalin's political opponent.

@bsergent
My biggest contention with your post is that you make a point predicated on the notion that an expansion is semantically simplifiable to being a content patch. That by itself is not to bad, because semantics is semantics. But you are using it to say that therefore, PA:Titans is not an expansion but a pay wall for content.

Saying that something shouldn't be discussed since it would be splitting hairs is really just to protect yourself from rebuttal. If you are trying to make a concrete statement, it doesn't make sense to say that counter points targeting the foundation of your argument is inadmissible.

We'll talk when you stop screaming at me.

Titans is not an expansion. Titans is an entirely new game officially and yet in terms of code it is clearly just a lightly modified version of PA.

The modding community itself would have done far more with Uber's power over the engine.

Indeed we asked at length for better modding access:
https://forums.uberent.com/threads/pa-server-api-requests.61182/

The existing stable of mods greatly eclipse titans in terms of sheer scope of changes. I'd argue the orbital warfare overhaul mod alone dwarfs titans in terms of actual changes.

A balance pass and 21 new units is not an expansion in any qualitative sense. That's what I mean by splitting hairs. Sure, technically it's an expansion but only because they say it is.

Titans would be a fairly legendary mod if judged objectively, but it wouldn't be universally applied. A lot a players argued against game ender units and experimentals. (Not me personally.) It would not be any more paid DLC worthy than any of the other larger mods, and it certainly doesn't come within light years of a true stand alone expansion (like forged alliance.) It's not just the same engine, it's the same entire game. They essentially admitted that by ending the sale of the base game. (Another thing stand alone expansions and mods and DLC don't do.)

In any case, as you say, I make "a" point. But it is hardly "the" point. This is all splitting hairs to me, getting lost in trivia.

The core point is that we are dealing with customer discrimination. Did I or did I not buy the same version of PA as KS backers? Did or did not EA backers buy that same version?

Either I did not, and bought PA lite under false pretenses, in which case I am owed its value back, or I did, and I am owned the same treatment as other buyers generally.

Explain yourself or nobody will listen to you and you'll be dismissed as another internet troll doing nothing but throwing fuel into the fire.

Dodging questions, however they are presented, is not a good start.

He dodge question like Uber, so, if you agree with uber, stop punching him!

Is asking a straight question without screaming really so hard?

My reply to dom314 proves I'm not dodging anything. I'm just holding you to the same standards I'm being held.

See the thing is this... I don't believe any of you actually have questions. Your minds are made up already. So really this is all a big farce. You all know deep down what Uber did, and they clearly do as well. Your defense of it and them puzzles me but I know I won't get any answers just by asking you the sorts of questions I can ask here.

What were your promised that you didn't receive?

Before we go down that road I'd like you to provide me a list of promises made that you'll accept. Because the problem here is a lot of the promises are implied.

Take for example stability. It's obviously implied that they promised the game would run, but they didn't explicitly say that anywhere of which I am aware because why would they? But now, if I just rattle off the obvious (to me) you could come back with some version of "citation needed" which even if I found you could reject. So let's establish our agreed basis for citation first.

https://www.kickstarter.com/project...nnihilation-a-next-generation-rts/description

That page is obviously a great resource for promises made but it's a bear to search and parse into a short list.

I see 115 update links each leading to a text share. I'm not going to stitch those into a single searchable document.

And then we have all the official comments made here and on steam. Which again are hard to search.

The biggest most obvious broken promise that is implied by not stated is that PA would remain PA. When people donated it was understood they were donating for PA, not for any other Uber projects.

If Titans actually is a separate game, then imagine replacing that game with a totally different one. Imagine if all of the sudden Uber released human resources in titan's place and then ceased sales of PA.

That's silly you no doubt say because HR is a totally different game than PA, and that's exactly my earlier point. You're not upset in this way, because you intrinsically understand that titans is not truly a new game.

Let's examine a real stand alone expansion: Forged Alliance

I couldn't play base supcom inside FA. I couldn't match play vs supcom players from within FA because FA was truly a stand alone expansion. It was a whole new game.

Ok so if it's not a SAE (stand alone expansion) then is it an update? Well, no since updates don't get a separate game page or a price tag, but discounting the sales stuff, this really is a content patch for PA. Is it a Mod? Sort of. But again no, because of the pricing and the ending of sale of the base game. Also mods are sort of implied third party affairs, but there are exceptions. Ok, how about a DLC? No. DLCs are optional and part of the core game. They don't get new full fledged game pages (but they do get pay walls.) DLCs are also not mandatory and they don't end the ability to buy the base game. Trust me I know DLCs, I have all of them for borderlands 2. (My hate for paid DLC runs deep.) Is it a fork? This is close too, but again no because forks don't kill other branches. Also forks are an open source thing. Forking closed source code in some senses isn't even possible because closed source by definition has a single point of control and hidden source code.

So what is titans then? Not SAE, Not DLC, Mostly Update, Not Mod, kind of a fork, but not really.

Uber has invented a new category designed expressly to exploit various advantages for them, and none for us. Even they couldn't spin it as a positive thing, or else they have been hyping it and having us alpha test units and balance changes via the PTE channel.

Look at the instant hate at the announcement:

http://steamcommunity.com/games/233250/announcements/detail/125326385282487115

This was not a surprise. They knew everyone would hate it. But they also as I said in my merged thread, how to work a crowd.

The reason all that's relevant here is the definitions are going to become important when we start checking off the list of promises.

Free updates to me is obviously implied right along with a game that will start and do stuff, but how do you define update?

Well it's a bit like smut, you know it when you see it So we kind of have to go by industry standards. Uber is attempting to shift those standards for exactly one reason. Profit.

And finally we come to the biggest broken promise, and yes this one is implied also.

They promised to not be just another greed saturated and profit driven software company. When their videos and comments gush about what TA meant and what PA means and they said anything other than a pay check, they were making a promise in spirit.

We didn't pay Uber to be EA junior.

This game was released on my freaking birthday. I grew up playing TA obsessively. I was never any good, I only was a corporal on the boneyards. But I had a tremendous amount of fun. This is the only game I ever wrote mods for. (I often begged for TA mods.) I bought this game for my dad and my girlfriend. I cared about this game. But I care more about my integrity.

I am not paying when the fee is morally wrong. And for all the obvious reasons including the ones I've stated, we are owed titans if we already paid for PA.

If you are seriously going to claim that free updates was never a promise or that titans isn't an update, then convince me.

Don't you think I'd rather be happy about this situation? Don't you think I'd rather not be typing this?