The Confederate Flag Debate

Yes, I am going to bring up politics, but intellectually this is crazy from my point of perspective.

I am from the south. However, even then, I never was a fanatic of confederate flags. This does not sway my opinion.

However, this really does scare me as a possible Neo-McCarthyism type issue.

The reason why, is they are sweeping the nation right now trying to erase any historical confederate related things. They claim racism on it, and use that to be politically correct and thus entitled to attack an entire stereotype of people, southerners. It is rather sad, that it is "allowed stereotyping", all southerners are racist and are wrong and their historical symbols are racist and as such America is allowed to outlaw them.

The main reason this bothers me, is because historically, this is ridiculous. A history lesson follows.

When the country was founded, the leaders disliked slavery, all men should be created equal, but they did not have the ability to fight and win a war if they were dividing their own country. To pull leaders and communities of the entire continental united states, including the part that heavily supported slavery, they agreed not to outlaw slavery, but limited the representation of slaveholders to 3/5th their population of slaves, as well as limiting importation of slaves to 20 years, hoping the country would ween off of it eventually.

They also kept slaves themselves, george washington, thomas jefferson, and benjamin franklin, however it was to "save them" as they freed them in their will, which could only happen if they owned slaves. I only imagine they appreciated being given freedom 150 years before law would have done the same.

Now, northern and southern states had slaves. Neither disagreed on slavery up to the civil war, except on the magnitude of representation and the self-government of the states. The south wanted slaves to count torwards house of represenative members, sheerly for greater political power to steer laws. The north had talked them down on representation to 3/5ths. This made the north very competitive in representation as they had more population in citizens, than the south had in citizens plus 3/5ths slaves. A lot of laws, such as the federal bank, and presidental elections, were won by the north.

This is the part that makes no sense. The civil war was not based on racism or slavery. It was based on states rights to govern independent of the federal government. When I graduated high school, not only did I have to take US History, but I opted to take Advanced Placement US History. My teacher was very specific. She said Calhoun was a terrible terrible man. That is entirely true. He died a decade before the civil war, his statue was recently vandalized, and quite frankly it probably had it coming. You can argue he stood for good things as well, the same states rights and such, but better candidates exist for statues in that category, like the same-agenda but non-racist Bell or Douglas.

Anyhow, from the creation of the federal bank, to the McCullough-Maryland case, to the adding of new states, to the Kansas-Nebraska act, to the Dredd-Scott case, all was a political struggle for the south to gain equal or better footing on sway in federal power, as well as protect rights promised to states in the constitution, which they believed was anything that was not promised specifically to the federal government. For instance, taxes were created at the time that benefited the northern states more than the southern states, against import equipment and such. The south argued that the federal government were practicing powers that weren't theirs, but the federal government mobilized an armada at sea to enforce it. Such events created a lot of tension, until the south finally separated.

Even more fun history, General Grant of the north owned slaves, and Abraham Lincoln wrote a letter stating that if he could have won the war without freeing the slaves, he would have done so. The north's leader, the president of the United States, was in favor of slavery. Yet, we don't recognize the stupidity of the treatment of racism in all of America from the 1960s and back. We blame it just on half the country, making it right to eliminate any antiques, insult the people from that half of the country, and make it "politically correct" to insult them.

I am a Buddhist. It isn't right to insult anyone. If you wouldn't do it to a race, a gender, or a religion, you shouldn't do it based on someone's background, sexual orientation, height, eye color, taste in music, no. Just, no.

If you stuck with me this far, understand clearly, the modern south does not tolerate racism, racism was always wrong and any intellectual from our own founding fathers throughout history all the way up to now, knew that. There will always be idiots that don't represent the whole, Americans that give America a bad rep by the Europeans, Southerners that give the South a bad rep, internet people that give the internet a bad rep, Tumblr users that give Tumblr users a bad rep is a common example. The whole modern south, is against racism, and the KKK does not represent the modern south just because they use a Confederate flag no more than Hitler represents Buddhists just because he uses a buddhist emblem (the swastika is a buddhist emblem that "spins the wrong way"). The confederate flag is historical, not as a symbol of racism any more than the American flag is a symbol of racism, but as a symbol of history. Because, yes, freed slaves from the intellectual leaders, accumulated over the course of the years and the families descended from the freed slaves, fought for the confederacy voluntarily. Freed former slaves, fought proudly under the confederate flag. Slaves, fought for the north, only after being freed and escaping the south, only late in the war, because of the emancipation proclamation freeing only slaves in the south, motivating the migration to the north. The entire purpose of it was to hurt the South by encouraging migration to the North. The North continued to have slaves until after the war when the amendment was created. The North had slaves for longer than the South.

This, is why this surge sweeping the nation, scares me in how it mimmics commie witchhunts, and those ended in trials and executions. It is McCarthyism, for southerners. When do we get put on trial and slain falsely for treason?

As a broader topic and question, why does everyone have an entitled opinion on every type of human bearing. LGBT? Christians have a right to hate it. Pfft, no they don't, it isn't their choice, and judging their fellow man is against their religion, meaning they are breaking their religion to enforce their religion by law onto others. Confederate Related? It is racist, despite being supported by non-racists, so it is ok to force people to part with it because you don't like it. Christian related? If it is visible, people want to have a right to affect it, despite it not being them practicing it. Islamic related? People just link it to violence, when Islam is as linked to terrorism as Christianity is linked to the crusades, and yet we don't outlaw the practice of christianity and if we did the christians would petition for religious rights they deny muslims by heckling their places of worship. Race related? If it even mentions race even without a stereotype or opinion, it is racist for some reason. Gender related? To be quite frank, I have no problem with either gender having equality or special treatment depending on the person's personal preference, which means in context that I think women should be allowed to work and vote but men should also then be allowed to avoid draft signup and in the eyes of "society" not be judged for being a stay at home dad or physically fraile as women insist on being "equal" and getting "special treatment" and still stereotyping the things a "man must do", you literally can't stereotype men and want equality and special treatment and claim genetic dominance and all that junk, you are either equal or you are pretentious. As far as that goes, I am even nice and lift things when there is a choice between me or a female, but I will usually do the same with other males, so I treat both *drumroll* equally. As far as females questioning why they have to lift when there is a male available as if they should automatically be the choice, if you are both fraile then really neither of you should be lifting and if that is your occupation you shouldn't be being paid for it for not being qualified, neither of them. Neither of them. Not the women either. Seriously. Either of them can get a job that foregoes lifting, and calling the man a sissy is just as bad in my opinion as saying that women shouldn't vote, but dear lord help me if I say that. They are both mean things to say. Women shouldn't talk like that as long as I support their equality to vote and recieve equal pay in the workplace.

So yeah, this long thing, may be inappropriate and going out on a limb, but I am pretty sure personally, that since it is all accurate, and is correct not in the "politically correct" way but in the "actually correct" way, but Ima post it anyway. Here are just 2 sources to show I am not "pulling facts from thin air". I won't literally cite high school level textbook information, because unless I was mistaken, which recently I really do believe I could be, I thought high school US History was taught the same all over America and was mandatory for a diploma. I just.... really find it hard someone gave someone else a college degree when they argue that southern states and their entire population has been racist since the beginning of time.

http://chicksontheright.com/blog/it...-the-confederate-flag-cnn-still-looks-idiotic

http://www.nytimes.com/1862/08/24/n...-greeley-slavery-union-restoration-union.html

Apple pulled games based on the Civil War from the app store for depicting the Confederate Flag. Well, apparently it's because "...because it includes images of the confederate flag used in offensive and mean-spirited ways." but Apple just doesn't give a flying flag (c wat i did thar?) about context. If Apple gained control of a musuem the WWII section would consist of a single plaque that says "A German, An Italian, a Brit, a Frenchman, and an American all walk into a bar..." lest they offend someone because Apple and thousands of other deluded nuts don't understand the difference between depiction and endorsement.

Even worse is this crap:

Basically, "Screw games those are just toys and milking machines for people's wallets". It's utterly disgusting and if I ever get around to making that app I want to make it will NEVER come to Apple devices. Because to hell with their archaic attitudes.


Pulling a Joseph Stalin and censoring the past is just stupid and childish. Sounds like a perfect way to condemn yourself to repeat the mistakes of the past if you ask me. If someone wants to fly the flag over their house, that's deliberately doing something you know will offend some people. Buying one because you're a Civil War buff or an amateur historian is something anyone should be able to do regardless of how many people get hissy fits when they think of all those flags that exist in said collections regardless of the fact that over 99% of the country will never see it.

Wait wait! Are you buddist?!?

Someone in my school wore a confederate flag as a cape into their least favorite teachers class room on the last day before summer, and yes the teacher is African American.

True story

#crazyhighschoollyf

I've just always thought it was weird that you tolerated a flag of a independence movement that tried to brake away from the rest.

Usually most nations stamp out all dissent and rebellion when they happen.

But then again I am British so I kind of expect my government to do that kind of s***.

But It still strikes me as odd that you let the south keep the flag.

There really isn't anything that is actually wrong about it. It was the Southern flag but since the South didn't stay independent, it has no meaning to me. Just remember, we had Neo-Nazies for a long time after WWII and never did anything, but this flag is somehow an outrage.

Yeah, the current stuff doesn't make any sense.

It's unbelievably stupid.
There's a huge difference between using the flag in its historical context and flying it in front of your house and slagging off any non-white people you see.

If there really are people who get offended by the confederate flag, or ANYTHING when used to demonstrate history, they're simply childish morons.

I read that giant wall of text and didn't see any actual debate. What are people fighting about?

And this makes extreme sense in the many cases of multiple venues removing confederate antiques, as well as the app store example. I can legitimately get behind removing that racist bastard Calhoun's statue, but not every single antique or portrayl of robert lee or jefferson davis ever...

It is actually cute that ebay and amazon thinks it can remove items from their stores. They are private sellers, they will sell the stuff using alternative wording in the name/description (replace confederate with southern pride), and they don't have enough human moderators to scan all of it.

Ask for physical stores stopping selling it, most are probably going to sell their stock in clearance for cheaper sadly, and then afterwards the stores that do have the balls to sell it are going to see huge profits being a specialty store sought out for selling the one item others don't, so their loss as far as free-economy goes.

Ask for racism, seriously, who has ever considered the American Flag racist for flying over schools that were segregated in 1960s (the same flag we fly today)?

Ask for the south losing the war, America has went to war with lots of countries that also have flags flying over the UN building. Technically not American soil IIRC via technicality. Still, same with Mexican Flags and such. Generally, it is a flag of southern origin and history, why is why southerners relate to it so well. Most everyone I know, despite from the south, aren't racist, despite whether they display a confederate flag or not. Some people just have pride in the southern heritage, the whole accent and rural thing, not a lick of racism involved. It is insulting to say the southern thing, the rural setting and drawl accent, and the racism, are all one and the same. Yet northerners with the same past behind them, same racism, same extreme, pretend to have no clue what anyone is talking about when they mention their history with racism.

But those country's still exist, and are recognised by the UN. And the UN was formed long after your civil war.

The south was a rebellion essentially, and was crushed by the north.


It's just surprising that...well this stuff is happening now, rather then when the south immediately lost it's bid for independence.

Now see, I'm just a small-country scottish trannie, but seems to me that the confederate flag is basically a flag saying you're an enemy of the United States and a supporter of segregation and slavery. I'd also like to point out the flag is used across the world by neo-nazi groups because the Swastika is kind've illegal in parts (doesn't stop them using it anyway, mind)

Not if it's in a museum or a god-damn video game.

Funnily enough, one of the parts where the Swastika isn't illegal is in the United States. It's protected by the first amendment in fact.

But that's besides the point, and while yes it is true that the confederate flag and swastika are used by neo-nazis/the KKK/skinheads what have you, as Geers said that doesn't mean they shouldn't be used in a museum or in video games.

There are several books that tell stories about slavery that include the word "******", does that mean the author is racist?

Ooooh I am so calling out To Kill a Mockingbird next time someone calls depiction endorsement.

Yeah, but the Swastika is a buddhist symbol, and that insults buddhists by associating them with nazis. The confederate flag is a symbol of southern history, associating it with KKK is insulting. The KKK is not a nation, it is not "every member of the south", it is like an extremists group of 40 people out of 150m that nobody else likes except themselves. I don't like them. Nobody I know likes them. Most material on them is satirical and insulting them, because they are that disliked.

The confederate flag is a symbol of Southern history in a way that it represents WANTING TO NO LONGER BE A PART OF THE US

I wonder if Georgia or other Russian territories disputing independence get this a lot? Or, if most people feel "they deserve it".

Or, between Israel and the surrounding islamic nations?

At least in the south, using the flag actually just represents the southern differences in rural culture and accent, and not racism and treason against the US. A lot of stupid people talk, sure. But if I say I met someone stupid from somewhere and that their country was stupid, I'd be a racist.

I tend to say humanity as a whole is stupid on those grounds. Am I racist?

The first thing that comes to mind when I see the confederate flag is "redneck". I always picture stuck on the side of a wheel-less trailer with a wonky wooden porch and some skinny nutter in a singlet screaming in a Louisiana accent "Come on suun! Let's git dem 'gators!"

Basically this guy:



But not comic relief.