Should Build Speed be Reduced?

I am not gonna argue that PA has all the things you listed for FA. It has not. Some of them are not required, some others certainly are.

What I have trouble with is terms like "epic". Personally I think can be described as epic when 2 armies of 50 tanks run into each other and in the end you have a huge wreckage field. No need for over the top experimental units.
Also units in PA have multiple guns? For example the leviathan has multiple cannons that together make its main dps rather high. I guess what we might be missing is a few more types of ships that do different things.

The reason why PA is not as "critically acclaimed" (last time I checked FA had a lower score than SupCom vanilla, which puts a pretty weird light on those critics, as FA was light years ahead in gameplay quality) as FA or TA is not just a few missing over the top units that look fancy.
PA was released too early. A lot of different things were missing, some things are still missing.
There are hard features missing, like savegames or a minimap or wreckage.
There are soft features missing like a better balance that yields more interesting units. Uber is working on things like this. Look at the walls in PTE. They look awesome! I am sure we'll see more stuff like that in the future.

Also I don't get all that "it caters to the boring and the zerg". First off the zerg are a fun faction in starcraft and second of I would say FA "caters to the zerg" as well. "the zerg" is not the problem at all. You can balance the existing units and add more units without going back on the spam-factor. TA-style games are all about the zerginess.

I still don't see why this isn't a mod and move on sort of problem. Am I going to have to be the one to mod this?

You guys keep talking about having a feature like savegame will magically fix the game when in reality it rarely comes up in negative reviews. What does come up a lot is dull boring combat. Maybe you can tell me why that is, since you don't want to listen to why I think it is.

And I can't take anyone seriously doesn't want expiramentals. Why don't you just shout "Keep my game boring please" from the rooftops. Are you afraid of balance or something? Because they are definitely fun in FA.

I wouldn't have so much of an issue with blobs and zergs if units didn't die in 1-2 hits. it's definitely not epic to watch when everything just dies and popcorns everywhere. No, quite the contrary is dull and boring.

Also I have followed this and the steam forums and a lot of people roughly react the same way as IGN: "WTF I CANNOT SAVE GAME IS UNPLAYABLE". Personally I don't care at all about that feature, but I can see that there a lot of people in the mysterious crowd of single player-players who want that feature and I even kinda understand why.

You will get popcorn units no matter what if two large armies clash into each other. TOOOO much dps at the front lines. To get no instant destroyed units you would need so much hitpoints that smaller fights would takes ages.
I am not against some extra hp, maybe 50 to 100%, but that won't magically fix all issues.
Also I don't care about experimental units. I would be fine with them, but I realize that the balance will need to change quite a bit before it makes sense for them to be added, because in 1vs1 currently the game will end long before they are used. That was the same in FA btw. There are lot more fundamental issues with gameplay in PA that should be solved before more things are added. Like working out the lower tech levels to play well and have no useless units.

Eh. That is opinion. And for experimentals to balance wise work, they would have to be balanced like the krogth or no stronger than the C&C3 experimentals. Armies made of experimentals fighting it out like Dragonball Z is pretty badass, but not what the game is going for.

And it also isn't some magical fix. The game works REALLY well now. I have a mod that does even more. There can be more cool stuff added like stealth or some Zero-K unit roles. It can all improve it, but it works really well now.

Even with your opinion of less units and more base and more t3 units, you can mod all that stuff in if you want to play matches like that. I am serious, go through all the unit .jsons, what I would do is change factory build rate to 10 instead of 15, which puts it in par with basic fabbers too. Maybe change commander build rate to 25-20. Change metal income to 5 per mex as well as the commander metal income a little less. Then, change the healths of the units to be 2x cost for bots, 5x cost for bots, 6x cost for t1 structures, and 3x cost for t2 structures.

Generally, obvious exceptions for some things like inferno and artillery. But that would buff health, nerf metal income and unit build rate, and number of units on the field. Mildly too.

Want to make it much more durastic? Take what I just described, and afterwards give all the units 50% health, cost, and damage increase. The units will do similar effect to each other, take less units overall, and each unit would do more to structures, requiring less units, as well as the units costing more per unit.

EDIT: You can lower unit speeds from like 20 to 18 or 14 to 12 or 10 to 9... in order to prevent them from rushing past turrets, which likely need an equal health+dps increase with the units they now counter.

You have some valid points here I can mildly agree with. Yes there are a handful of people that want savegame. Are you trying to argue that's why PA got a 62 on metacritic? Because it's not. Seriously read like 10-20 negative reviews on metacritic, I'll give you a hint, lack of save game rarely comes up.

If that is the case then why is popcorning less common in FA and TA? Because hp pools scaled much higher at t2+ and so did build times. The more I think about it the more I thin PA'S t2 being a minor upgrade is a big part of the problem.

Also expiramental units don't have to have the exponential gains they had in FA. They can have moderate gains over t2 while still feeling epic and interesting. Hell you could make t2 units that have longer build times and more hp that have a more epic feel. My point being that PA is missing it's soul. It's lacking that something.

Also balance can always be found on pte first for new introduced units. That's a poor excuse for not wanting to add fun new units. I would like to see less useful units balanced as well. I don't have high hopes however since the game still plays pretty much the same since release. Uber is definitely taking their sweet time.

Maybe if I wasn't a fulltime student, working, and in the process of buying a house. Sounds interesting and I definitely would like to play around with the idea.

That is part of what I talk about when I say "fundamental issues with gameplay in PA"
t1 to t2 balance. Missing units, or rather unused units like the grenadier, etc.

EDIT:
on the question whether save games are part of the negativity in reviews: many reviews do mention it, as a good review should mention it. Yes many reviews also critic the boring Galactic War and single player experience (I agree on that) or the gameplay in general. When I read those parts I am thinking "yep I agree, Uber is working on it right as we speak, as the latest patch notes quite visibly prove"

There is actually a much simpler solution to THAT problem.

The main issue, is that the DPS doesn't only come from the front line. Instead the DPS of the entire formation stacks, even if there is no actual formation. Shots magically passing though allied units is the main cause for these ridiculously short encounters.

That causes quite a number of other issues:

• Bigger platoons are always better² (no joke, that's literally how much better they are, even more when using micro rotation)
• Once you reach critical mass, no regular base defense can stop you (except for pelter spam)
• Indirect fire units are forced into absolute niche roles (such as the grenadier, which has almost no other use than sniping enemy backrow units, such as towers behind walls)

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I do want to say though, both you and @raevn have been very respectful mods. The community on these forums as a whole has been pretty great. Even if I don't agree with many of your point of views I still think they are interesting and worth trying to understand.

I appreciate not being banned from the forums due to civil discussion and disagreement. I've seen that happen on other forums.

Interesting I feel like I must have subconsciously noticed but never made the connection. Yeah, that should definitely be adressed. Don't wrecks shotblock though? Strange that units wouldn't. This also explains why certain niches like artillery aren't as successful. Firing over units isn't a big advantage when everything can already do it. I also think arty should be given a small aoe and a bit longer range but that's just me.

@blightedmythos
A lot of people want saves, for a good reason. And just because a few people on the forums don't understand why does not detract from the importance or awesomeness of what the save feature could and probably will be in this game. Just think outside of the box my friend.

Now I will simply remind you that although you have an opinion of what the game is and what you want it to become, it is just that, an opinion. There are plenty of people who do enjoy the game, and the direction it is going. I for one don't want the changes you are demanding.

Please don't start saying rude comments like "uber is taking there sweet time" you have no idea the size, time, budget of the team working on pa currently. They ARE improving the game. Comments like that are not only unnecessary but are naive and the very thing that makes game makers not want to interact with us. Just try to be understanding. As you are busy, so are others. And if you can do it faster, do it then and prove me wrong.

On a side note, metacritic should burn to the ground.

I am not quite certain if that solution is "easy". FA certainly did not have that and was fine. TA... I can't clearly remember, but I think @raevn at least once has actually proved somebody wrong on "all units blocked shots in TA".

Indirect fire units worked fine in FA as well, because they actually had more range than direct fire units. In PA the grendier has no range advantage at all. What points does it have to be indirect fire if you can just be direct fire and have the same range? An artillery that doesn't shoot further than a tank is bound to insta die to the tank.

I don't even think we fundamentally disagree. If Uber manages to finish what they are doing right now I am certain a lot of the "it is dull" talk will go away.

I think artillery was amongst the units which wasn't blocked at all, so even if you missplaced your artillery, its shots were guaranteed to go through. However all units did block direct fire shots, no exceptions that I would be aware of.

FA didn't have it, that's true. But FA had other means to discourage death balls, mostly static artillery installations and the fact, that even on a 10km map, you would need to be able to react, and that wasn't possible if you balled up all your units due to much slower movement speeds. Plus you also often had a static situation where both players send a constant unit stream on one lane in order to hold ground. You don't have any fixed lanes in PA which you could defend in the first place. Also the weapon range, which was small compared to the effective footprint caused by the default spacing - which in return TA didn't have.


Right now, PA has neither:

• An adequate movement speed respectively the resulting reaction delay
  
• Friendly fire
• Reasonable relation between footprint and weapon range

It's not necessary to have all of them, but having none makes it rather unstable.

There are fixed lanes on all maps I know of.

I never once said I don't want a save game feature, just that it isn't widely responsible for poor reviews. I think it would be great for a lot of people with working schedules. I personally can usually finish a map within an hour so I've never really wanted it, but I wouldn't mind it. Don't jump to conclusions or put words in my mouth. I also find it ironic that you tell me to think outside the box when I've been doing nothing but that...*shrug*

Yes I have an opinion. That's sort of what discussion boards are for.. discussing things. I feel like I have been pretty civil during this whole discussion. I am aware other people have different opinins as noted a few posts up. I even stated there is some value in seeing other people's point of views. Saying you don't agree with my ideas doesn't bring anything to the discussion. How about you elaborate and give us a why?

You state that different people have different opinions but then go on to say I shouldn't have one? I honestly think Uber is on the slow side of Things. That's my opinion. I am sorry if it hurts your delicate sensibilities. I hope you can see the hypocrisy here.

There are chokepoints, yes. But no prolonged lanes in which the ground control slowly shifts.

I think range values need to be played with on a lot of units, arty especially. I think arty defenses need a big boost in either range or aoe or both.

Unit responsiVess is also some of the issue. If there were actually acceleration and deacceleration values on units I honestly think it would add a lot to combat.

And that's an engine limitation. Since hey chose not to implement the full continuum crowd algorithm, but only a fraction of it, units are terrible at steering around each other, so they collide unless they have instant acceleration / breaking. They would need more default spacings in order to avoid each other. Either that, or at least increase the quality of the flocking algorithm so it can compensate where the pathing component fails.

If you look at my mod, I always believe in a circle of soft counters. Not really rock paper scissors, but giving units a weapon with a function that covers the things, so when you actually scout or use variety, it's use becomes abundantly apparent. That is one thing I also liked about Statera.

That is one reason I like 2 distinct weapons for units, rapidfire and shell. Shell works on higher armor, it's low rate overkills weak cheap units too slowly. Rapidfire works on cheap weak units, it's overall damage doesn't meet up to shell damage. Good ol' C&C (such as Renegade) had it that way.

I always liked making mods with Dox having their weapon, grenadiers having at least most of a tank's damage and a dox's range and a dox and a half of cost, ants having slightly higher than grenadier damage and decent armor, and adding the skitter to have 2/3 a tank cost, 1/2 a tank's armor, and a rapidfire gun like the dox with 100 range and 12 speed.

That way, Dox is a great tool against grenadiers, grenadiers kick *** against turrets and tanks with very cost effective firepower, tanks can take a beating, and skitters can anti-zerg for tanks. Tanks are badass, while bots still beat themselves and are the most dps per cost on anything you sick them on. Various army compositions can be used if balanced right, and all feel "creative".

Heck, then I make that t2 tank a t1 tank in health and do twice the damage and rate of fire and a slight range advantage so it pummels other tanks, while making the vanguard into an apc with heavy armor and a bot-ranged heavy rapidfire gun where the leveler counters the vanguard but grenadiers would still counter the leveler and dox would still counter grenadiers.

Ofc, I just made shellers into ants with a huge range bonus and arc. They don't need to be stronger, being mobile and wall-bypassing is a utility worth the extra cost with no other bonus.

So basically though, I still support, that giving tanks more cost and an increase above that in cost-to-health ratio, and giving the tank factory a unit that is a direct response versus high numbers of low health units, you would at least have "fun" zerg gameplay. Huge surges of one type of unit can be quite effective, even if a counter to it is gently sprinkled into an army, and can be a massive lost if scouted and it's counter is brought to the frontlines, and variety armies can still be interesting as well. Just make everything have a weapon intended for use against certain things, and make everything even more "pure" versions of what they do best. Even less rate for shell tanks, even more health for vehicles in general, even more units per metal value in bots, even more effect per single bot, and weapons that really effect it's intended target.

I thought RCBM most units used realistic values of accel and decel and didn't mess up that badly.