Should Build Speed be Reduced?

I think the idea with PA is this is supposed to happen a bit* but there is heavy attrition -- you lose units doing it but you are supposed to by design, they are lifeless unfeeling war-machines with only one purpose after all. Where it all falls apart is the critical mass is far too easy to acquire and even the briefest encounters result in unacceptable losses leading most players (well new ones, and inexperienced and casual ones) to just get a blob to reach crit-mass, throw it at the enemy rinse and repeat. This is boring to play and more boring to watch. Higher level play that hasn't stagnated into too narrow a number of possible meta's (hoping there's more than one or two by now), is more interesting and they do manage to manage even these weak units quite well.

Mered is right in that the balance to date has been plagued by fix this with this and fix the fix with that, unfortunately some/most people have gotten used to some of these slapped on quick fixes, it makes me wonder if there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth when/if some of the much needed areas are eventually addressed. This might not, probably won't be what is discussed in this thread, it may well be as has been suggested, there are other means of slowing the start of the game if nothing else, without touching build-speed but I'm sure it will be suitably controversial - it will have to be to break the cycle.

*the game is intended to favor macro and overall strategy over micro and lower level tactics, although these weren't intended to be cut out altogether for all but the highest tier players either.

I get that, but we can still have SOME micro and tactics. TA did and it worked well, so did Supreme Commander. In the current state I just find the combat lifeless and boring. It needs a bit of something. Bigger hp pools would be a step in the right direction imo.

This is where we are going to have to agree to disagree. I honestly think that Uber's balance is rather solid and fun. Not just in 1v1's but in larger scale team games. I am not saying it is perfect. Personally I would like to see orbital reworked, especially jigs and gas giants. No offense intended but I don't agree with your idea of what balance should be. I feel that it will ruin the game. I'm sorry that you don't enjoy the game as it currently is. But so long as you are advocating for the game to head in one direction I will pushing for the game to head in the direction I would like to see it going.

I haven't been here since those early alpha days so I missed all the butthurt and the crying. I feel the way the devs currently stand they doing an amazing job. I feel they understand their game well and are making the right decisions to improve the game all around. And they are doing it in a very timely manner.

I really think that you are overstating the problems thou. In my eyes something is broken only when it is not fun to play against. The dox when they could shoot underwater were broken. There is nothing that I feel is broken at the moment. Right now people are arguing about making the game feel more comfortable to themselves and not actually contributing any good ideas.

I am total noob in TA, but I dare to say I know quite a bit about SupCom:FA and PA 1vs1 gameplay and I completely disagree that PA has less micro and tactics than FA. PA has certainly a few balance issues compared to FA, but those are the issues Uber is working on right now in quite a visible way.

Please don't mitigate the things that happened during alpha and beta as simply folks getting butthurt. It was (and still is) an aggressive campaign by certain members of the community to keep these folks out of the design process. It was not only wrong, it was disgusting. You don't see this as much because the folks they wanted gone got fed up with the bullshit and decided to spend their time elsewhere. Some of these folks included BrianPurkiss and KNight, who, next to ColaColin and raevn, are still among the top contributors to the PA community.

That said, it's not the main focus, nor should it be.

I absolutely agree that the balance we currently have can be playable and fun in certain areas, especially in FFAs (unlike FAF, where FFAs are really stupid on decently sized maps). That said, compared to what the balance could be with a little bit of planning and sacrifice, it pales in comparison. You'll notice I never stated my personal preference for balance in my post, but you disagreed with my philosophy regardless.

Look, the first part of the solution is recognizing and acknowledging the problem, not arguing over whether or not it exists. The issues with the current balance are slowly slipping under the surface as the symptoms are being patched. We need to fix the real issues before we have to in six months or a year.

Having played FAF for the last few days, I completely agree. There isn't a lot of micro unless it's a 1v1.

Personally I think the only low moment pa has had in balance for me was when it was the dox all day every day meta. But since then the game just keeps getting better and better... this current direction is taking pa to everything I could have hoped for .
Congrats for such an outstanding game uber!

I would keep bots how they are, but increase the price and size of vehicles and vehicle factories (along with the size of the planets). Then there is a fast style of play and a slow style of play at the same time. Also it makes tanks feel like tanks and bots feel like infantry.

Variety is good.

Oh god get over it dude.
You want everyone to agree with your opinion of what "the problem" is. I for one like PA and as Colincalin says above. They are fixing the issues. Don't confuse subjective opinion as fact.

I'm sorry, but no. They had so little respect for the devs, even after Jables came along and helped out with the PR.

They forced their opinions on others, and frankly im glad their balance was never realised, as I just don't really enjoy what RCBM's Balance had been.

Now of course I agree with many things from them, such as t2 being sidegrades, but I swear everything they said had edge to it, and I'm suprised someone wasn't banned.

For the record I still think the game's balance could use a massage change, and wish I could do it.

That edge you saw was a reaction to the treatment Uber originally gave them. As for Nanolathe specifically, he's got a dominating personality and doesn't put up with any bullshit during a discussion. This can be very grating for most people - something he himself understands, which is why I'm here and he's not. And they never forced their opinions on anyone - they had the facts, the others were disagreeing for the sake of frustration. They made mistakes along the way, but they held firm to their vision.

I'm not saying their balance was an amazing creation and should be implemented into vanilla. I'm saying they knew what they were doing. They had a vision and they took the time and effort to follow it through. I say we expect the same from Uber - and (since jables and tvinitia changed things) I would say they are fulfilling that expectation.

But results speak louder than anything else on the table, and I think Jables understands that.

I'm having to say similar things to folks in the Starmade community too - look beyond what we have today. Look at the potential. Don't connect the dots. Draw your own. We aren't here to fix the balance - we need to help envision the balance that should have been in the game to begin with. Don't be satisfied with what we have now when this game has so much going for it in terms of sheer potential and replay value.

That said, recognizing and encouraging the developers when they get it right is a really important part of this. Whining all the time for new systems and features will just get us ignored - something I think some of the old-timers got wrong.

I'll admit, it's been forever since I've played SupCom, but TA definitely holds true. I'd argue micro doesn't start surfacing in SC until t2+(something I also never liked in sc). T1 in TA has much longer build times and larger hp pools. Having played it recently, I'd often micro long range artillery bots in the back, tankier tank unit in the front, move high dmg missile robots to have line of sight because they can't fire over wrecks. This kind of interplay just doesn't really happen in PA. It's basically your blob vs theirs and it's boring because units die so fast. Also, TA had much more effective defensive which made for more interesting game play.

I think the other issue is there are just way to few land units to have any kind of interesting unit roles and the units they do have aren't balanced well. For example, dox in t1 robots is really only the unit worth building besides the fabbers.

An interesting idea, I sort of like it. What would you do with air and naval then?

booms are fairly efficient sniping units and deliver quick high damage at the cost at blowing each other up ... combat fabbers are good in mixing with either infernos as healers or grenadiers for positional combat ...

I'm sorry but if you feel that the only good bot is a dox then I am going to completely throw out any comments that you have about how the balance should be improved. You can and should use every unit in the bot family. Even grenadiers are good. People just don't know how to use them. GRENADIERS SHOULD BE MIXED IN WITH BOLOS AND INFERNOS PEOPLE. YOU STICK YOUR DOX IN WITH YOUR TANKS. YOU KNOW THAT IS USELESS RIGHT. REPURPOSE YOUR BOT FACTORIES. YOU DON'T NEED THAT MANY DOX LATE GAME. I'm joking i'm joking, well not really but yeah. I would encourage you to try and experiment and explore what the current balance can do. There is a lot of things that isn't in mainstream meta that are pretty powerful.

Grenadiers are useful?


This joke is deep.

And all your opinions about balance have been thrown out the window.

It was a trap.

I actually think he has very valid points, some of which should be considered. I get that there are a handful of people on this forum that like the game the way it is and hate the idea of any change. I think some of you could be a bit more open minded and receptive to some ideas, as I really think it would make the game better if you just stopped to think about it.

PTE has at least made them a bit more useful with the addition of the new walls. (They being taller and such)

Yeah, but what about all the fights where no one uses walls? Unless the map is seriously scripted like most of the 1v1 maps, I don't see wall play being a regular thing.