Grenadiers

Are completely utterly useless.

Some facts that make them look "hmmmm" on paper:

- they have more vision than tanks (120 vs tank 100) and more range (105 vs tank 100). They have only 2 less dps but 5 splash. They move with 12, tanks with 10. Tanks however do 84 damage per hit. Grenadiers only have 80 hp. That means tanks one hit them and dont even do much overkill.

But maybe with good micro it is possible to kite tanks? How much is 5 more range? How much is 5 splash?
Some tests:

20 tanks on a close blop on hold position vs 30 grenadiers. That is the same amount of metal.
a-moving the grenadiers makes them close in too much and they get completely obliterated.
Trying to micro quickly shows that 5 more range practically is nothing at all. I can barely get the grenadier too shoot and only if a single tank gives of a single shot that is one less grenadier. Trying to storm in vs the close blop and focus fire directly into the middle to use the aoe yields this result:



totally obliterated. EDIT: actually 30 tanks, ups. But I doubt that would be much different in reality .... Put 20 tanks on hold position and tried to micro the 30 grenadiers vs them. This time I put the tanks on a normal move order, so they are not as close together:

Turns out the tanks by default group up in a distance of more than 5. The splash damage has no effect like this. I've tried hard but I could only very rarely use the 5 extra range. Even the standing tanks quite often give of shots. vs moving tanks it would be much worse.

So what about dox? Standing dox really can be kited. Moving dox however... are much faster than grenadiers, 20 speed vs grenadiers 12. Grenadiers still get a few shots of. Hard to tell who will win per metal if both sides can micro fully, but I would doubt that the Grenadiers look very good. At most it asks the dox player to split his dox to prevent the splash damage. The 8 less speed on the grenadier make them cleary not an option to play vs dox anyway and that isn't their role either.

So actually aren't grenadiers good vs buildings? Well yeah if there is nobody shooting back then Grenadiers yield you the most dps per metal.... not. Infernos are much better. MUCH. Now but grenadiers have more range than ... the single laser turret by 5. The normal turret already turns this around and has 5 more range than the grenadier. So let's try equal metal fights:
... okay actually let's try it unfair with 3 grenadiers (dont want to due cruel things to try 2,25 grenadiers) vs one single laser turret. They have 5 more range so let's just have them take care of the turret via "rightclick" on it.

meh. They apparently dont stop at the max range. They move closer and get shot.
With a little micro I can kill the turret with 3 grenadiers... though I lost all of them as well it was a draw. It turns out to be just as hard against the tanks: 5 more range is not enough to clearly outrange the turret.

This btw is the result of 2 tanks that straight move in vs a single laser turret that has to turn a little before shooting (which btw was also the case vs the grenadiers, I even moved them to prolong that phase)

... yeah. Let's try vs a turret that points straight at the tanks:


certainly a difference. But still: This required no micro at all. The same metal in grenadiers required micro and I still lost all grenadiers and only got a draw.

Now I won't even try vs the normal turret, that is only 1 more grenadier, but that turret has more range, more dps and more hp compared too the single one. No way in hell the grenadiers will do anything vs it.

The grenadiers is an utterly useless unit right now. I suggest to give it a massive range buff to something like 130. Make them what artillery is supposed to be: long ranged doom to any tower and annoying to anyone who is not moving their army constantly.

Also I think the purpose of the single laser turret is kinda weird. It isn't really very powerful, loosing to even 2 tanks. I would suggest to make it an "anti light units" turret. Make it a little cheaper, have less range and have make the turret rotation 5 times as fast or similar. So it can track down dox really well but sucks vs tanks.

Then change the double laser turret in the opposite direction: give it more hp but slow down the turret rotation, so vs slow targets it will be good but vs dox it will die.

Both t1 turrets will be outranged by grenadiers. The t2 turret should be different. Increase it's range to 125. Based on the experience of range 100 vs 105 that will be enough to prevent grenadiers from clearly outranging them. It however won't be much of a buff compared to the current 120.

Grenadiers are shooting over things, so they excell only when they can fire but the enemy can't. In commboxing you see them a lot.

Colin...

Play BettahBalance. I do exactly what you suggest.

Then comboxing and maybe attempts to use walls for frontal assaults are the only ways to use them right now.

And behind certain terrain features afaik.

I'm a little torn on the idea of gernadiers outranging turrets, especially since they already shoot over walls

I definitely feel like they're subpar even with their ability to shoot over things, but that's mostly because rarely do you have maps where the terrain blocks LoS, just walls. My main issue with them is they're just too slow for bots

Although when I think about it, having them have enough range to outrange defense turrets would increase their ability to shoot over terrain to hit units as well, and make them be generally useful, but easily taken out by dox rushes since they're slow, which is also good because dox don't really do too well at anything other than being somewhere the enemy isn't and taking out the mex there (slowly). Problem is, then nobody would use pelters (well they already don't, heh) so pelters would need a decent range buff, both to make them counter grenadiers and because their range is so short currently that it's just not worth building them anyway

I would also reduce the gren's view range to something that doesn't outrange turrets so that they need scouts or units that are taking fire while rushing the turrets to do it

I do same test... And grenadiers need some changes! They are only usefull behind walls. And now build wall with combat fab on front line will do some crash eco. At the moment, grenadier are only good to defend some position. Increase the range is not a bad idea

I am giving them less range, and then dropping their cost and increasing their speed a bit.

This way, you can afford more, you can get them into range faster, and their damage per cost will be better. They will also, due to cost decrease, effectively taking more shots to kill because 1 shot kills 1 grenadier but more grenadiers mean more shots. However, the hilarious thing is I am likely lowering their health to spite the fact that they are bots so tanks will overkill them even though they have less health tanks will take more shots to kill.

The downpoint will still be the fact you have to kill them to use them, but that follows infantry logic.

I also think turrets cost recently got very buffed. This is well enough, but their ranges can get tweaked in light of that. I am likely giving them various cost and range adjustments to variate them. They will "do what they do now" but with a slightly larger gap so they are less identical. No "role" but a bigger difference between. Probably, give singles 100 range and retain their stupid current cost and their decent health, give doubles 120 range but cost little more than now, and give triple 200 range and reduce it's damage to do the same to a unit in the same distance travelled (less damage per shot).

Honestly, I'd like to see Grenadiers given longer range and more splash, to emphasize their artillery like role. Maybe also a nice effect for the grenade explosion.

You have confirmed what I already suspected @cola_colin. I never build grenadiers . The only benefit of grenadiers is their ability to shoot over walls.

I like the idea of at least one t1 land unit that can take out a turret. I think they should be weak, so it should take multiple hits for that unit to take out a turret. But it hsould be possible. At the moment yhou can bomb a turret, but if you build a galata turret next to your laser turret, you can't really bomb them effectively. Unless you have so many bombers you can waste a few to take out the turret, which you probably own't want to do anyway (go around the turret instead).

So yeah, I'm not sure how best to fix grenadiers but giving them a unique ability sounds like a start.

Here's my proposal for better Grenadiers

Build Cost: 200

HP: 90


Damage
Weapon 1: 110 damage per shot, 1 shot every 2 seconds.
Weapon 2: 110 damage per shot, 1 shot every 2 seconds.

DPS Per Metal: .55

Splash: 100 damage, radius 5.

Range: 115 meters


Recon
Vision Radius: 115 meters


Physics
Max Speed: 12 meters per second

Acceleration: 720

Braking Rate: 120

Turn Rate: 720

My reasoning?
Grenadiers should play their role as an early artillery unit and should be the perfect counter for Bolos. Without a doubt, they should outrange bolos and deal far more damage. The tradeoff should be the higher cost and fragility of the unit. Which makes this unit VERY vulnerable to bombers and Dox.

Now, how do you counter this unit behind walls and static defenses? Considering the fact that they're pretty OP behind walls, and adding a buff like this will make them even more OP as a turtle strategy.

Proper use of Doxes, your own grenadiers and bombers should do the trick. And to stop them from advancing, a Pelter will work extremely well.

Remember, with the increased cost of Grenadiers, your opponent cant really afford to lose them, and on top of that, wont have much to spend for other units. Between actually building the Grenadiers, and combat fabbers, you also have to add in the fact that your opponent will always be building walls to advance with them.

An opponent simply will not be able to afford an unstoppable production of grenadiers and Cfabbers unless they already control most of the map, which even then, the same thing could be said about Bolos.

You could argue the new meta will be nothing but bots, but thats not entirely true.

If anything, now you need every type of unit. Bolos to counter Dox, Dox to counter Grenadiers, and Grenadiers to counter Bolos. Which means there is no meta, because you have to use EVERYTHING.

I am not sure on making it a super powerful splash weapon. Needs careful tweaking of how fast the bullets move or else you get a "I am kiting you and completely obliterate you via splash damage"-kind of unit.
Anybody remember the brackmann t1 cybran artillery from supcom2? That kind of unit.

Main problem in Grenaders for me that their Projectile Velocity too slow.It's inconvenient for using.

if it would do a lot damage and have more range it would be fine. It is artillery. It is not supposed to be a direct fire weapon.

Exactly, pretty much the only things that can dodge them are dox, which need to be a counter to something other than undefended mex spots right now, just like grenadiers need to be a counter to something other than turrets behind walls that people aren't microing to shoot grenadiers, so balance-wise it's a win-win for both units

I liked the post, even though I disagree with most of it

My view:

• Grenadiers are meh.
• The only use of Grenadiers right now is to fire over enemy walls, this is useful like.. 5% of the time. Tanks are so much better in almost every regard, so it makes sense to use tanks in this situation still, because they are so much more versatile than the Grenadiers.
• Potential upcoming changes to walls which will stop you firing through your own walls may make Grenadiers much more useful.
• I disagree with there being very cheap, accessible units that can almost nullify T1 defences. So I think giving the Grenadier significantly more range would be bad.
• If the wall change doesn't come, I'd like to see Grenadiers splash damage be buffed, with the aim of making Ants+Grenadiers more effective against Dox than pure Ants of pure Grenadiers (would be tricky, I know!)
  
• I like the single/double laser defence tower balance right now. Only spam singles as a last resort (e.g. you have a fabber in the middle of nowhere and Dox are coming), or if you know your enemy only has bot factories, as they are slightly better vs Dox.
• If anything I'd just like doubles to be beefed up a tiny bit. Could be done by lowering Ant DPS instead of modifying the turret.

I really don't like it that grenadiers are one hit dead by tanks. Dox are as well, but dox are ... well really cheap units.
Grenadiers are not especially expensive as well, but they I just dont like it when they insta die.
Also even with grenadiers having more range you could still defend vs them by using your own grenadiers together with turrets that prevent dox from moving in.

They would be countered by pelters, which are currently pretty useless, so they'd be made more useful as a result

Is that planned? The only planned wall fix I was aware of was removing the ability to shoot over an opponent's wall at tall objects like turrets.

I didnt even think of pelters, but yeah that would be a cool scenario.