Unit Cannon is here, what now

Discussion in 'Planetary Annihilation General Discussion' started by melhem19, December 19, 2014.

  1. elodea

    elodea Post Master General

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    Are you by any chance playing random planets and just doing the same thing over and over again?

    If so, you should instead try playing ranked. The maps do indeed provide various viable strategies and nothing that is necessarily optimal cookie cutter.

    Handmade maps > rng maps. Who'd have thought :)
    Zaphys, rivii and wilhelmvx like this.
  2. theseeker2

    theseeker2 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. Randomly generated maps reward quick thinking and strategic improvisation. Playing the same handmade maps over and over, you won't often see those things. Granted, that's if the randomly generated map is balanced well enough, but still.
    planktum likes this.
  3. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    So let's assume a magical map generator that creates maps that are as good as handmade maps there still remains one huge problem with that: Humans are not actually that good at coming up with stuff that quickly, so you will see players go towards a more generic playstyle that doesn't try to abuse map specifics. Yes after playing the same map thousands of times it starts to get boring. It's probably most fun to play a map for a 1-3 month and then switch.
  4. theseeker2

    theseeker2 Well-Known Member

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    To solve the problem of people not being able to strategize that quickly, put a system preview in the lobby that allows you to see the planets and available spawnpoints before the match. I just tend to find games more interesting when neither player has any prior knowledge of the map. There's only one map though in any game that never gets old if you play it a thousand times...
    it's setons
  5. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    Nah what I mean is players actually need a few dozen games to test a map before they can possibly play it at a high level that takes the map into real consideration. Researching how to play a map like that and to see how others players adapt to a map like that is fun to me. But it takes testgames. Far more than one.

    I hate setons
  6. theseeker2

    theseeker2 Well-Known Member

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    Well, I don't play anything at a high level, so maybe that's my problem. I just feel like how 'good' a player is should be judged by how well he plays on an unfamiliar map, not a familiar one. I could probably artificially inflate my rank if I just played the same map over and over.

    how dare you hate setons, it's the only map I play in FA
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  7. elodea

    elodea Post Master General

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    That idea of best play being judged on how you play an unfamiliar map is what actually underpins the strength of set piece, handmade maps. It's an arguement that is often mis-used in favour of rng throw-away maps.

    All maps are unfamiliar. It's up to the player to overcome that whether it be 2 minutes in the lobby, or over 3 months. I would argue that a map that provides continued learning over 3 months is better than one that only has 2 minutes worth of depth.
  8. theseeker2

    theseeker2 Well-Known Member

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    I don't have time to learn how to play a map over 3 months, plenty of people don't. I think it's best for me at least to play on a map that I've had 2 minutes to look over because it gives me a better chance of winning. It's not the time reviewing the map that makes a large difference, it's the imbalance between someone who has played it for 3 months and someone who hasn't. Since it's much easier to just have throw-away maps that you can review for 2 minutes than to make everybody play the map for 3 months, we might as well just go with the former. That way, it's not a battle of map familiarity as much as it is a battle of strategy.
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  9. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    So to summarize you want to game to let you win even if your opponent has much more experience than you do. You might want to check out so called "casual games".
    Strategy is actually all about practice.
  10. elodea

    elodea Post Master General

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    If you start by saying plenty of people don't have the time, then you can't also say that you're at an unfair disadvantage. The majority of people won't be 'familiar' with the set piece map. So what happens? You get matched up against people who have spent the same ammount of time with the game on the ranked ladder. Seems entirely fair to me.

    That claim of imbalance is bogus. You're basically saying the game is imbalanced because the person plays more games and learns the stats of all the units has an unfair advantage. According to that logic, we should also randomise units and everything else every game, which makes absolutely no sense.

    There is no world in which reviewing thousands of maps, each within a short ammount of time, is easier than reviewing one map over a long period of time. That's like saying it's easier for an author to write 1 book every 2 minutes, than 1 book every 3 months.

    Lastly, familiarity is entirely related to 'strategy'. Would you not agree with me that information is integral to the action of strategy? It isn't a luck based slot machine.
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  11. theseeker2

    theseeker2 Well-Known Member

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    No, I want the win to be decided on game mechanic familiarity and strategic improvisation - familiarity with the units and not the map. To start with at least, somewhere along the course of a match, you will begin to be familiar with the map, but that only matters for the course of one match, the map gets tossed away afterwards.
  12. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    If you don't have the time to learn the map you don't have the time to learn the units either. Basically you ask for the game to be not very deep and simple to pick up so you can win with low amounts of available time. I think it would be better to just play weaker opponents, who have similar low amounts of time, instead.
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  13. theseeker2

    theseeker2 Well-Known Member

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    No, I'm just saying that player skill should be independent from map familiarity. Being really ******* good at playing one map and **** at others doesn't constitute a good player, being good on all maps and in any situation does.
  14. theseeker2

    theseeker2 Well-Known Member

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    also it takes about 10 minutes tops to learn the units: http://pamatches.com/wiki/
  15. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    Nobody is equally good in all scenarios. Also nobody asks for a one map ladder. More like 16 maps or so with very different attributes.

    I am sorry to inform you that reading some little info like that won't make you a top player.
  16. theseeker2

    theseeker2 Well-Known Member

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    I know, but reading that info will give you knowledge about the units and what they do. How you decide to use them in battle, that's different.

    Why not have an infinite map ladder? If 16 is better than 1, why isn't infinity better than 16?
  17. elodea

    elodea Post Master General

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    You're right, it doesn't. That's why the ranked ladder pool has a fair number of varied maps. Are you telling me you're really good at all of them? *You should try it some time.

    For the same reason an infinite number of chocolate waffles is worse than just enough? Don't get me wrong, i like my chocolate waffles, but being crushed by an infinite weight of them doesn't sound very pleasant.
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  18. cola_colin

    cola_colin Moderator Alumni

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    Because quite often the best stuff is somewhere in the middle between the extremes.
  19. theseeker2

    theseeker2 Well-Known Member

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    I'd make the case that there aren't enough to disconnect map familiarity from rank. I just suppose I have a different metric of skill. I value the ability of one acquaint oneself with the map during the course of the match, not over an extended period of time, anyone can familiarize themselves with the map over an extended period of time.
  20. Geers

    Geers Post Master General

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    Hey to be fair, humans went from barely able to make heavier-than-air flight work to landing men on the Moon in 66 years. A single lifetime.

    That's pretty impressive.

    :eek:. YOU'RE DEAD TO ME.

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