peregrins

On my holidays so don't wann delve too much into this. But you can argue mathematically that cheaper fabbers (energy wise) will prevent expansions even more and also prevent t2 even more. Remember combat fabbers guarding factories build. It will be like that but not a combat fabber but 6 fabbers patrolling 3. That's probably a mathematical fact, but hey live in your and Colin's dream world for a bit. Sounds nice.

It's not a dream world.

I don't completely agree with how Colin went about solving the energy problem. which is why I added the necessary changes to the CUBM.

Feel free to try them out. I'll be refreshing the mod soon for the Unit Cannon update.

Regardless, either of our changes are better than vanilla. Hands down.

Personal opinions, and maybe the opinions of the majority of a minority do not make anything hands down. Yes hands down to you guys and that's great. good for
You guys.

Think about it this way. People will play mods when they think the game is broken. And then yeah for them these are a breath of fresh air and of course they enjoy your mod as they have picked it from a list of 20 other mods to suit their gamestyle or needs.

But for me, a guy like yourself has played every pa build, and learned to play each I think the game is fine as is. I learned to adapt. Some players are nostalgic whether it be it for previous builds or games in the series. But you guys need to realise at the minute you are the minority of a majority and until the majority play a mod will remain so.

Tl:dr I'm tired of this we are right you are wrong because of x mod attitude the vocal minority have.

You'd have to admit it would be nice to see more t2 and multi-planet stuff in competitive play though, right?
These furious little t1 bot/tank skirmishes are fun and all, but seem like only half the possibilities of PA.

Yeah I agree but theas are a lance issues not exonomy

The changes I suggest don't work like that at all. I reduce the metal cost of structures and the metal build rate of fabbers to prevent massive support like that. The "energy per metal" ratio of my suggested fabbers is 66,67 energy per metal/s instead of the current 100 energy per second. That still makes them worse then any other t1 building activity, factories have 45 energy per metal/s.
I don't need to dream to realize that 66,67 > 45 so supporting factories with those workers will still be bad.
Comparing that to the combat fabber brokenness (what was it 60 metal/s for 0 energy or something?) shows you have not even considered any numbers at all?
It's pretty harsh to call my ideas a "dream world" based on such an obviously wrong accusation.

Please don't associate me with mered's constant claims of absolute correctness. I am (or want to be at least?) far away from that and don't want to be associated with it in any way.
I don't consider my few balance mod experiments more than that: Experiments to test if my claims of understanding the economy make any sense. From the games I've played with them they seem to make sense and do change the stuff as I want it to change. You're free to dislike the gameplay I want, I know you actually just love microing bombers anyway

EDIT:
So I kinda got a little enrage. Take this is a little insight into my frustrated view of the current situation.
<inaccurate rant>But unless the gameplay you strive for is "stay on t1 and spam hard while taking a few mex" the current economy is "broken" as in "doesn't support the my desired gameplay of a TA/FA style game".
Currently PA balance reminds me a lot of SupCom2. No joke. In SupCom2 the t1 mex was what for PA is the t1 pgen: An overprized and horribly ineffective basic economy building that ruins any fun in building more than a few factories and rush to attack. The economy of PA, just like of SupCom2 back then, basically works out like in a Starcraft2 type of game. Nice if the RTS in question is Starcraft 2, there it works great. But neither PA nor SupCom2 try to be SC2. They are different games that work differently and currently both of them are nothing more than bad SC2 clones to me. Maybe I just should quit wasting time on PA and play a little SC2 instead. At least I would not have to worry about the question of how long it will be until whoever is responsible for balancing the game realizes that the current economy style of PA is aiming at being another type of RTS that PA simply is not and should not be, as competing with SC2 is pointless.
damn I am getting angry about this. I guess I will wait for how tvinitas solution to "there seems to be a lack of t2 in 1vs1" is. If it's something stupid I'll quit this time eater. </rant>

t2 is still slightly problematic to get, but the current ladder maps are well designed such that a fair number of them will/can see t2, multi planet, and unit cannons. Played some games with matiz earlier this morning and walls/double laser turrets are pretty strong.

Ah ok. I've only played twice on the new ones, I keep getting the old ones for some reason. Unlucky I guess. Probably the same reason I keep losing.

yea the old ones, specifically triangle desert and ice one you won't see t2. You'll see t2 on the lava one, and sometimes the naval ones.

Orbital rush on the system with one lava and one metal is also quite viable.

They just happen to be the opinion of everyone who has played my mod and given me feedback.

Myself and Colin have done the numbers, the research, etc. We aren't talking out of our asses. We're both good players, much like yourself. I don't THINK the game is broken - I've tested the hypothesis and seen it holds true in the majority of situations. And I'm not the only one.

Hey look! More research! And numbers! Looks rational to me

Ouch. Yeah, I should probably tone down the rhetoric, eh?
Note to world: You can have your opinions. They don't have to be based in fact. You can try all you want. We actually did something about it. But yeah, you are entitled to your opinion.

Most players don't even know the mods exist. Please stop attempting to use the *silent majority* argument - it doesn't strengthen your argument and just makes me want to beat my keyboard with my fists. I've played every PA build since Beta began, and I'm fed up adapting to a balance that just sucks. It motivated me to create my own balance mod, to prove to myself I wasn't being a crybaby (and that I wasn't crazy).

I am curious about that: Has the lava planet such small chokes that you can actually stay alive by using turrets?

There's only two entrances to the base, and both are easily defendable with 3 tanks on one side in case he built dox, and commander on the other side. You basically build only 2 fabbers, 3 tanks, and build the orbital factory with your commander off the first fab.

If you do that, your opponent won't have enough units to really stop you getting off planet. He has to chase, and if you can defend against it then you're going to get a huge metal advantage and win. I was like 2.7k income to matiz's 175 by the end.

I guess if the map has a base that can be defended that easily so you can just basically go orbital 2nd like that it would work. Sounds interesting. If that proves to be correct over the longer time: nice to be wrong in my doubt about that one. Though one may wonder how the gameplay will turn out once both players rush for the metal planet.

It's a nice map in that there will be alot of mind games.

There is definitely a blind counter build to the orbital rush. You expand some metal, build lots of spinners and stuff, then follow up with slightly later orbital to chase. This prepares you for the mass of bombers that will try and kill your teleporter.

That blind counter build will die to a normal build coz of all the spinners, but the orbital rush has a good chance against a normal build. So it's interesting how players will respond to each other.

Orbital rush vs orbital rush will be interesting if it happens because it'll mean they both think the other person is trying to do normal build.

Can't you use a land scout vehicle to scout for the orbital rush stuff?

A T2 air fighter with anti-anti-air (countermeasures?) could be really interesting. So if you have a single T2 fighter with your T1 air fighters they take less hits because the enemies missiles are being shot down. Might try to make this into a mod to see how well it works.

what if the opponent built a handful of infernos

you could! Or it could be denied by tanks. Or a meta might evolve whereby you fake a normal build and then go into orbital rush.

@theseeker2
infernos are slow so i doubt it will do anything. And if it somehow works, that would be a blind counter build because it dies to both dox and tanks.

If he's quick about the infernos and uses the comm, it could be broken fairly quickly.

Are you insane?! The Kestrel is one of the most usefull units while it´s also already balanced!
It serves it purpouse---beeing a fast unit to kill every invading unit so incredibly good. It´s awesome at killing Dox. It´s main weakness would be naval units, but as nobody plays Naval this doesn´t matter.

I simply don´t understand why there are folks posting that the Kestrel would be too weak: Have you never head 70+ Kestrels?! Believe me, they ARE powerful!
We got definitly other problems with air---Hornets have to become less powerful, but they should also be less micro-intensive; currently they are useless without (A.I. of Hornets tends to do kamikaze Attacks without reason; a long range missile bomber should simply not fly right into enemies AA if they are capable of destroying it without entering any deadzone) and totally OP with micro! (oneShot=OneKill!)
We´ve got no AntiAllAirUnit and that´s not good. Ground forces got a Tier I (Dox), Naval got Tier I+Tier II (Narwhal and our beloved Stingray) while Ground and Air got none. I suggest the inclusion of a Tier II ShortRangeLaserFighter with additional long-range anti-Air rockets on both wings, would sound pretty balanced to me! (can kill SINGLE Hummingbirds with ease, DOUBLE Hummingbird with half life lost but cannot kill local AntiAir.
Would give a nice mixture! (Bumblebees for PointAttacks, Hornets for BaseWipeouts, Hummingbird for AirWipeouts, Kestrels for Control and Peregrins as air superiority!)