Mods in ranked games.

pretty simple why no mods in ranked ...
everyone plays with the same tools in vanilla .. period .. allowing them or disallowing them every game may make ladder inconsistent and confuse players ...
you dont want mods but their features be available to you ... it is up to uber to include those features for everyone or not at all ... if feature x is not in then you have to suck it up ...

Yeah we all use the same API indeed

Didn't really read the post. Just went on the link, looked at the forums there and replied with 100% derailment post , sorry.
Back on topic: i don't really care about mods like hotbuild in ranked. I don't think anyone is going to win a match just because they installed hotbuild or a similar mod (It is a macro game after all, apm doesn't really matter that much). Battlebear got second in the 1v1 ladder without using hotkeys after all (his apm is also not very high). You can just not play without it because you're to used to it i think. But the vanilla hotbuild should ofcourse be made more handy, that double click thing is a bit silly.

I apologise for making it sound like i called you a conspiracy theorist, should be more clear in the future

The client/server divide already enforces this. Client-side mods cannot do anything a player can't, function-wise

... Danggit @cola_colin !

Different players also already have different "tools" - fancy mice, keyboards, larger screens, better performant computers etc. My view is that if the speed benefits of client mods make such an impact as to influence the winner of the game, then we have a larger problem - the game is not only micro-focused, but micro is so important that it beats strategy.

The problem I think is some people seem stuck in this 90's mindset that the only way to occupy the player is with manual labour fluff, without realising that such things are due to the UI limitations of the time. Remember how some people thought Starcraft 2 would be less skill based because you could select larger groups? **** those people. I hope that we can automate away that ****, just like we did by adding queues and repeating build orders to RTSs, so that I can be challenged to manage my time across meaningful decisions. People talk about the difficulty of managing multi-planet warfare. Well imagine you've got a little more time on your hands now...

Yeah that is a good point. I think with a better UI and a better balance and better maps orbital stuff will be important even in most 1vs1. But for that we NEED the best UI we can get, as it will massively increase the amount of stuff a player needs to do fast.

not even death itself my friend, but no I do not like being cheated there is a difference between someone using ui and huds and someone using blatant cheats lol, like sure it is cool if someone adds hotkeys or adds different huds but it is not cool if someone is using a mod to lets say map hack or autobuild for them, autobuild is like autoaim in a fps, which is aimbot, which is cheating, blah blah blah here is a picture

so i take it because people have different hardware we now shall have mods to counterballance that or what? that makes no sense ... if there is a problem were micro has to much impact and overthrows general strategy or if there is lag of macro control then those are what simply need to be fixed ... it is still no justification to have mods be enabled in ranked games ..
interface should be same for everyone general unitcontrol should be same for everyone ...

Well personally I don't use *any* assistance mods in PA, nor did I in any other game. The thing is though, they're actually more hindrance than help in my experience.

I know to set my factories on repeat already. I don't use hot build as I'm not so fussed about hot keys (after all you can queue up well in advance, click drag and such, I don't feel PA *needs* hot keys for building really- I prefer to focus on using control groups and camera anchors with the keyboard).

As for other people using them, well UI mods *can't* do that much. Honestly I think it's fair game. I recently played a shared army 2 v 2 with a guy who had the auto-build mod and **** me that messed up with my builds something chronic People forget that in some circumstances it's a *massive advantage* to be able to pause production of units (especially when metal stalling) in order to direct them to *something critical*. Loosing lots of ground to an opponent without much air- drop everything and pump out bombers. I've won a few games that way. This *isn't bloody possible* with auto-build.

TL-DR any form of automation takes control away from the player and gives it to whats normally a pretty dumb ai (we're not talking one of Sorian's efforts here). At the end of the day, these mods are good training wheels for new entrants into the ladder (e.g. for players who forget to build with factories) but they're *not* going to help (or really pose much threat) to someone at the top of the game. PA has plenty of APM reducing options already, seriously I think this game is really easy to manage. Let people play with their automated tools if they like, doesn't worry me!

No.

Well while this is the reason I don't use autobuild so far (also if you actually understand how it is implemented it sends chills down your spine, trust me), it is possible to make a more advanced version of it that allows the player to give commands to autobuild to control it more fine grained. After the recent discussion I can see me implement an enhanced version that is on a level where I consider it useful for myself. That certainly would include some simple configuration while ingame.

My point is though, I'm not convinced that handing over control of your base to an AI is really ever going to be *that useful*.... maybe I'm wrong, but if AI was *that good* then surely @sorian's AI would be better at the game than any of us mere mortals. He's one of the best RTS AI guys out there, and to a new player his AI would probably feel unbeatable, but to the players in the 1 v 1 ladder? It isn't capable of making intelligent enough decisions to pose a real threat. AI can be efficient at doing something simple, but even with neural nets it doesn't truly think.

Now if 1 v 1's regularly took place over large multi-planet maps, with multiple simultaneous battlefronts I could see this kind of help actually becoming a significant advantage, otherwise however there is already enough automation for me. I can't see any of these mods making me better at the game- I have moderate APM and I only need a fraction for building / base managing thanks to area commands and such.

That wasn't what I said. I was saying that different hardware gives the same small micro advantages that mods do, so what's the difference? My argument is very close to what you say:

If strategy > micro (as it should be), then any small micro benefit you may get from mods are irrelevant, as they are not enough to affect the outcome of the game. If they don't affect the outcome of the game, there's no reason they shouldn't be allowed. They simply remove the need to boring, manual tasks, without changing the deciding factor of the game, which is the players' strategic skill.

Ofcourse it isn't the only way, and i don't think anyone here is arguing that. You don't purposely convolute the action by requiring the player to lock pick a door, behind which you need to press a secret button to unlock the glass cabinet of a lever that unlocks the REAL lever that you wanted to use. But you know, if a lever needs to be pulled, it needs to be pulled.

Also, i think it's not right to label all mechanical stuff as manual labour fluff due to old UI limitations. Think about aiming the mouse in any fps vs auto aim. Aiming doesn't require any 'strategic' thought and is purely a mechanical skill. You could have good strategy (movement), but bad mechanics (aim) or vice versa.

It's really about differing tastes. I find the sc2 click fest enjoyable because there is always so much to do and the game makes you go into a rhythm that is really quite satisfying. Many people also find the sound of high apm keyboarding very relaxing!

Though probably when i become older like you quitch, my tastes will change to something more pensive, brooding, and less mechanical .

Anyway, here are some high apm keyboard sounds for you to relax to since you seem quite tense! LOL

There are a lot of times when I play I could have used the auto build. But as elodea mentioned earlier I choose to micro my bombers for 30 seconds and disregard my factories and waste metal, of course it would be better to use it but it takes away from the game. I would also want my dox that are sitting outside my factory to move to intercept units that it sees on the radar that I didnt. People could argue this is the same and why not, moving those units is pretty tedious. Of course I want to intercept..

A high APM war for me does not relax me at all.

AT ALL.

Sorry bro. It's just not fun to me.

My point though Clopse, is you (or me for that matter) know much better *what to do with those units* than any automated script can.

If you see a group of units there is little point moving directly at their current location- you need to lead them, predict *where they're going to go* or often more importantly *where you need to prevent them going.

An automated script that sends units "to intercept" the enemy is likely to waste your units (sending them in small numbers against a larger force) or simply move them away from where they need to be. It would make you weaker imo as your opponent could easily fool the script into making *terrible* choices whilst your distracted.

It's similar to my example with auto-build. It doesn't take into account any higher level thinking in leaving those factories idle (there are times I want to do this). The entire crux of the arguments here all basically assume that the key to winning in PA is purely down to efficiency of base operation (something mods can improve) yet I've seen you beat players who have more eco and more efficient production via clever tactics and micro. No amount of automation tools will change that and I actually think many of these tools will actually make things worse for the better player.

I didn't say playing high apm war is relaxing? Please bother to read before posting. Sigh.

I said the sound of high apm keyboarding is relaxing. That is, listening to others.

Playing high apm is enjoyable because it is the opposite of relaxing, in the sense that it gets you into a rhythmic 'trance' so to speak. But untill you get to that stage, apm ofcourse is not enjoyable. Just like excercising is not typically enjoyable untill you are decently fit.

I am all about the nope here. This is a strategy game. I go to FPS games to test my reflexes.

This guy...

If you don't think there is strategy in FPS games, then you need to stop playing something of quality other than COD.