making eco option viable with minimal changes converstion; bouncing ideas evolve each other

With this simple change I believe a skilled expanding player could make up the early unit deficit starting with a 10 sec delay for eng storage first that would allow for 2 fab getting mex 3 assisting com getting eng up after 2 fact first while depleting stored eng then closing the factory gap then sent to expand.

Ah can't wait to test this...

Executed perfectly I think the eco oriented player could stand a chance vs the Argo player.

It's just about finding a way to make up the lost 10 sec for eng buff and 10 freaking extra seconds per fabber created more than opponent. I think a simple reduction in Faber creation time would help, or inversely slowing dox roll off time.

you mean the time to build a fabber? Having more inefficient fabbers doesn't make them any better.

With eng storage first you take a 10 second delay in production to over double available energy which allows fabbers to blow through early extra game metal and energy surplus by assisting commander to quickly get up eng production so they don't tank eco.

This extra production then allows you to close factory gap. Maybe even take fact lead.

Now finding the balance between acquiring new mex and blowing through it with the extra production capability is where the puzzle lies.

If the eco player can hold of aggression they could take the lead with production capabilities in growing eco facts and quicker d set up time

The player just needs to not be steam rolled but have a fighting chance.

Reducing fab production time would give that chance. I think?

The assisting fabs and extra expanding fabs could easily close that 10 sec eng storage gap. That's only 3 dox but compound penalty 4.2 dox per every extra Faber you build and we get a insurmountable snowball effect where it's impossible to catch up cause there is no way to defend and take advantage of exponentially increasing production capabilities.

This leaves eco balance and unit balance unchanged but gives both aggressive and eco options a chance.

Minimal change but could potentially really diversify gameplay.


This is just theory crafting mind you.

I am not sure I understand what you are saying... Let me try to translate:

Did I get that right?

Storing a resources does not increase how much you actually have.

It does, as you throw away Energy in the beginning of the game. However, in another thread, somebody calculated this amount of Energy to be equivalent to ~2 minutes of income from a Power Generator, if I recall correctly.

Yes it does because it's wasted in the first moments of the game the surplus eng not spent is wasted. Thus increasing your starting eng which in turn can be spent on getting enough to support the extra fabbers.

Right, two min gain for ten second investment right off the bat which can greatly increase production capabilities.

With fabs hitting field sooner this 2 min extra eng could change an eco style play.

It's not about how much energy you have its about falling behind so far in combat units because fabbers take to long to be built.

And
1 extra boost used to make fabbers not tank eco

2 recover from 10 sec delay from storage plus delay from each extra produced fabber.(recover in the number of factories) you will build facts faster with extra help

3 having ability to build faster gives Windows for defensive offensive economy based options.

4 this can't be done if not given a fighting chance because of delays.

5 yes with proper scouting attack paths micro the aggressive player opening should be able to topple eco player opening with superior play not even play

Ideally with even play the aggressive player reduces production capabilities of eco player to that of himself and your set a "mirror" match.

Instead it's just a steam roll aggression being way way better than eco going off numbers and pure theory.

http://pastats.com/chart?gameId=235279

In this random example BattleBear wasted roughly 50k energy at the start. That is 77 seconds of using a t1 pgen. Now you can't actually store all 50k. So you only get your storage at second 10 if you build it directly. (Do they build that fast, I think they take 15 seconds?) So after 10 seconds you are already at "wasted 19k energy". So 31k energy remain. That is 48 seconds. So after 48 seconds pgen first would've been better?

Can't follow how this should work.

I don't see an issue with fabber build times for the most part. Factory build power is not the issue I see.

Ok and boost storage rate with reduced times of Faber being built to the magic number that makes it viable.

While changing balance but minimally right?

Like if storage started out with x amount of eng too just barely make it viable without it simply replacing power generators.

Once again pure theory crafting, just thought it was an easy answer to making both styles viable.

Can someone explain why this isn't viable. It changes minimal balance but allows for a more" eco focuses playstyle"

Even if you have a storage that stores unlimited metal if you only have to waste 50k energy before you can use it that won't be a difference.

The energy problem is about far more than 50k energy.

Read post above your reply, I believe this could be easily fixed.

Even if you make storage and fabbers cost 0 metal it won't fix the fact that using fabbers costs too much energy compared to using factories to make dox/tanks

Hum.... so you think that idea would not increase possible production options?

Even if given a balanced eco boost initially with storage starting out with x eng in it while building up at rate it currently does?

Maybe it's a dead end idea?

Was just trying to think of simple solutions to make multiple openings viable

Storage isn't the solution I think. The issue is that building an army is waaay cheaper on energy than doing anything else. So people don't build energy, don't build many fabbers and just spam dox/tanks for the most part.
Adding in more storage in whatever form is not gonna change the balance of energy usage between factories and fabbers and also is not gonna solve the issue that fabbers are soo inefficient with energy that players are easily limited by energy instead of metal.

That's the main point. Even if your build nets you significantly more Energy in the beginning, then this Energy could also be used to produces Dox instead of powering Fabbers. (The building of Power Generators can be delayed so that more Factories can be build earlier for example, or so that the Commander spends some time assisting the first Factories instead of building Power Generators for a while.)

So both strategies become stronger, and the balance between them stays the same. Therefore, the same problem is still there.


EDIT: While I don't think this idea will work (actually I am a strong believer in Colin's Expansionist mod), I appreciate you thinking about possible idea that might help the game become better!

The extra eng could be used to gain a production facility number advantage though......right?

Plus assisting factories is less efficient that simply having more factories......right?

While delaying power gen production would lead to a dead......right?

Never use me for examples.. I waste a shitton of resources haha! Im working on it!

So you're a perfect example, as we are talking about "there is not enough wasted energy for a super big storage to really help"