Some thoughts on balance

I believe that achievement is currently in the hands of @BradNicholson

but not for long... better step your game up Brad. likez4lyf.

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Now I see why people knew and loved you before joining Uber. I hope you know how much you are aiding the PA community. This is what we were asking for the whole time. shame it took so long. So much negative and dirty talk could have been avoided. anyway, you are doing a great job Jables. Really appreciate your effort. Keep it up!

It's not as hard as you make it out to be as long as you have a goal in mind and a well documented plan that details your intentions and methods to reach that goal.

Reactionary balance changes are really only good for fine tuning the final balance paradigm, not for basing the foundations on. Is there any attempt being made to come up with something cohesive this time, that will give all units a role that is more clearly defined?

Some would argue the unit roles we have now are clearly defined.

What's the role of the T2 Bomber? T2 Gunship? What role does the Vanguard fill the inferno doesn't do already?
Haven't found anyone able to provide a straight answer yet.

EDIT: Better phrasing: What do these units do that another unit doesn't already do better?

T2 bomber is a siege missile gunship; it's meant to attack a base lying out is of base defense. T2 Gunship works very well at fast action attacks, especially stragglers waiting alone or without aa. Ripping things to shreds when the time comes. The vanguard works completely different to the inferno honestly... The inferno is limited to one unit at a time but has very high dps and wastes none of it. The vanguard wastes quite a bit of damage due to very high alpha. It's meant to take out a group of units, not singular high health units.

T2 bomber: commander snipes, aa, flak snipes all out of aa range.

Gunship: hi dps/ sec air unit, ie: no reload time. Good for sniping key building and units without moving.

Inferno and vg are similar to bolo and levellers. Better dps and more hp. Again their roles as I stated are clearly defined. They may be upgrades but that has nothing to do with their roles. The inferno being better at killing units that get too close to it than buildings but adequate at both. The vg is better at buildings but decenct against units thatnget close.

For some units yes, but for others not so much. All you need to do is look at the grenadier (yes I know its an easy one, but this is only for a clear example).

So what exactly is it supposed to do? I thought it was supposed to fit into the light artillery and skirmisher roles. However currently it sits between Dox and the basic tank in speed, cost and range.

I think they would benefit greatly if they asked themselves a few simple questions.

1. What type of job is this unit supposed to succeed at?
2. What is the selling point of this unit? Could it be that can outrange other units, or that it has superior speed?
3. What drawbacks/weaknesses does it have? Is it slow? Is it expensive and not very cost effective?

If they do have the answers to these 3 questions, then it's simple to balance and easy to spot when something is wrong.

The T2 Bomber fills the same role as the BlueHawk, except it's in the air. Arguably, it's different because it out-ranges all AA. Also, by the same argument, it's the same because it out-ranges point defense towers of its layer.

The T2 Gunship is not built for any situation, as far as I can tell. It's just like, HEY I'M DIFFERENT THAN A BOMBER USE ME INSTEAD. By the time you hit T2, the need for fast action attacks is much lower than it is in the early-mid stage of the game. Arguably, it could be used as a fast action ground interceptor.....but.....why would you need that? An attack on the other side of your base perhaps - but bombers already fill that role.

The Vanguard was thrown out there as bait. Look, the Vanny is better than the inferno in every category except cost. It's a straight upgrade. That lowers the variety in the game because you basically are copying units, but making one more powerful than the other. Boring.

Also, Liquius nails it.

Completely. To the Wall.

EDIT: I'll make a psot here in a second answering those questions about the T2 Air ground attack units.

I understand what you're saying and don't disagree. But this is a balance issue not about its actual role. The role is correct, it just needs some tweaks to get there. The role idea is there just badly executed ( I'm not arguing this point).

I'd say that your statement is not very different from my own then; that they're not being clearly defined.

Just incase you go off in a tangent and forget what you began to quote me on....

Based on Current gameplay experiences and the stats:
T2 Gunship:

1. Killing small raiding forces and raiding outlying mex (I don't like this, personally)
2. It's got super high DPS for an air unit, and is as tanky as fighters.
3. It's slower than fighters, but still faster than any ground unit. Expensive and T2.

T2 Bomber:

1. Killing base AA and Base defenses from out of range (three other units already do this)
2. Hovers outside of AA range, throwing down damage without any trade from AA
3. Slowest Air Combat unit. Medium health. Expensive.

Why are there so many duplicate roles? This is boring. And I feel like I could write two - three of these little lists for each unit.

EDIT: MORE LISTS ON THE WAY

T2 Gunship (2)

1. Kills T1 armies of any size with brutal efficiency
2. High DPS, tanky health
3. Slower than fighters, Expensive.

T2 Bomber(2)

1. Commander snipes and other HVT snipes.
2. High Alpha damage, long range. Quick speed.
3. Slower than fighters. Expensive. Medium Health.

Indeed however "being" is such a strong word in the sentence though.

As opposed to what? I don't understand.

That's more vague than even I could hope to touch.

+1

He's basically saying that the roles for the units aren't somewhere in an essay or list or spreadsheet. Now these roles aren't LOCKED IN A BOX-type roles - just a general idea of what the unit will be used for on the battlefield.

For example, in the Community UberBalance:

T2 Gunship:

1. For tanking air defenses as well as ground support for ground units
2. High Health, quick speed.
3. Lower DPS.

T2 Bomber:

1. For taking out clumps of units and buildings.
2. High Health, Long range, Large Bomb with large AOE, and average damage.
3. Ridiculous reload, high energy maintenance, slow speed, and High cost.

See? Pre-defined, thus we can throw some numbers around to balance the unit. But, players can use them for multiple things. Like Comm snipes, or HVT snipes. Or whatever. It has some versatility. It's limited by its drawbacks, though.

I think you're misinterpreting what I am saying. I think you are being a little too specific. For example this is what I would say about the gunship

1. It's supposed to excel at attacking undefended or lightly defended bases/armies.
2. It's main selling points are that its very maneuverable and can ignore most ground units.
3. However it performs badly when it come across significant AA (from both ground and air). It also cost a lot to compensate for it's strengths.

Notice how I only mention the bits that make the unit. The amount of damage output, how tanky it is, or it's speed isn't worth mentioning as that will be subject to change when finetuning the unit.

I'd like to point out that I'm not in favour of arbitrarily limiting a unit to only do one thing. But that's not what a "role" is; it's nothing so specific. I really don't want to be drawn into a semantic debate here.

If mered's interpretation of what you've said is correct... if you think I'm trying to push units into doing only a single "thing" clopse, then you really don't know me very well and you haven't appreciated the work I've done on RCBM.