9/10 review - Brutalgamer

That and there currently is rather a negative attitude around PA... and also you've got to remember how resistant some are to change or new things. I have plenty of friends in the Spring community for example that are somewhat suspicious or even against PA in principal- and the only reason I can see is because its 'not spring'... similar to a few die hard SupCom FA people on here. They've even taken the time to make an account, just to 'prove' how much better FAF is to PA....

Why people can't just accept that all these games can co-exist is beyond me

Because they can't co-exist, anymore than a 1960 Ferrari 250 GT can coexist with a 2014 Ferrari F12berlinetta.

Sure, some old farts are still stuck on the 250 GT, but all the smart people know where the real action is nowadays, and it's not in a decades-old car or game that has been almost completely superseded.

Currently faf/supcom IS superior to PA. That does not mean that PA cannot become as good or even better, however, jables has his work cut out for him to sort the game out from a balance/orbital design perspective.

They may be superior in some aspects, but not in the most important aspect of all. I will explain what I mean in my review, but merely looking at screens of those older games makes me feel depressed now. They are now officially depressing games.

Except that a mint condition 250 GT is probably worth *considerably more* than the 2014 model (personally I love classic cars- though anything Ferrari is never likely to be in my price range...).

Also Spring is something else really, when SupCom came out many in the community thought 'the end was neigh' yet Spring is still actively played today by it's niche but dedicated audience (being a complete system made entirely by the community- it's far too rough around the edges for many). As for SupCom, well FAF strikes me as a similar project to spring in many respects.

And a canvas with feces smeared all over it can be "worth" millions, yet still be worthless to anyone with a brain. Money means nothing to me or to critics in general.

As for people still playing Spring or whatever: there are still people playing Donkey Kong every day, dude. You know what we call these people? A word that Uber would not allow me to post on this forum.

tl;dr Progress waits for no one. You either ride the train of progress, or you get left far behind.

Lol.... it's true money isn't everything, still there are *reasons* why some 'old' cars are held in such regard- they are works of art. Modern usually means faster or more efficient, but there are less black and white things that make or break things like this.

The same applies with *certain* games that really hit a 'feel' that is beyond the pure technical. As it happens I think PA is getting there on that, though it lacks some of the fines that games like TA achieved (over quite a long period of time though I might add). I'm all for moving forward and trying the new, I just also think that it's worth remembering the good from the past too. It's probably hard to go the other way though, someone who starts with PA isn't going to like moving back to OTA due to the lack of niceties in the much more modern UI (lack of area commands for example).

Cars are not works of art. They are vehicles. I have written an entire book on what art is. Can't link it here because too much vulgarity in it, but I'll give you the definition: "the craft of illusion". Cars are not illusory, ergo not art.

The only reason some older stuff costs more than newer stuff is the economics of collection/scarcity, i.e. something that has almost nothing to do with quality.

As for the rest of your comments: you are preaching to the choir here. I have reviews on my site of games from the '80s. I am the only person in the world to have written a review of Spacewar (1962).

None of this changes the fact that the very point of progress is to overcome the old to such a degree, that the new will obliterate it. And in the best of cases, it does. In the rest of the cases, you keep hammering at it until it does.

Whoever prefers a 1960 Ferrari to a 2014 one is not a true car lover (he is an old fart who's going the way of the dodo together with his precious car). And the same is true of all the other crafts.

Why are you assuming that i am going to read your review?

lol my comment was meant as an explanation, to give you an idea of how deeply I've considered the issue. To show you that it is not a comment I just randomly threw out. I in fact do not expect anyone on this forum to ever read anything beyond IGN/Eurogamer/RPS etc.

I disagree on the cars aspect- the body shapes of these things are works of art, able to convey concepts and feelings beyond the pure function. Also you assume that a newer car will actually drive 'better'- and I would argue driving pleasure is probably the main thing in a car (over the simple functionality of getting from A to B, in which case any exotic car is a waste of time). The more modern cars disconnect the driver from the road, using computers to balance the suspension, improve braking and so on. If you want to go fast, win a race- then the new car is definitely a better choice, but as a test of skill and for enjoyment as a driver something a bit simpler and more 'mechanical' where you can feel the feedback of the road is more rewarding.

I suppose as with most things it's a matter of what your looking for.

If a car is art, then any object whatsoever is art, i.e. NOTHING is art, in which case the word is useless.

If you want to understand what art is, read this: http://culture.vg/features/art-theory/on-the-genealogy-of-art-games/#partii

It's all very technical and there's not many bad words there (there are in the rest of the book though, so don't read all of it if you have a problem with them).

As for your car argumentation: you might as well say that the best car is a pair of running shoes then, the way you are talking about it. So like I said: not a true car lover. If mankind had followed your logic we wouldn't have even invented the wheel yet.

There is no denying the existence of progress. And if progress exists, it also means that some things are categorically better than others, with no ifs and no buts.

I'll leave this discussion now because I don't think I have much more to offer to you guys without linking you dozens of books to read, etc. It is my belief that no one posting in this thread possesses the required background to enter into such an advanced discussion and offer anything more than commonplace fallacies to it. I've heard all your arguments thousands of times before, and I have refuted them all already in many published works.

Indeed, Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

A woman can be beautiful too, but she is not a work of art. Beauty is not art -- it is beauty. Art is something else. It is the craft of illusion.

Well I meant no disrespect- i was enjoying the debate... I'll give you this much, you have conviction in your beliefs which is half the battle. Still your not going to change my mind on this either so probably best to leave it at that.

Final point though- you are assuming a huge amount to say "no one posting in this thread possess the required background to enter it such an advanced discussion"... I suppose that stems from the nature of this forum, which is about a game (suggesting many young and inexperienced people).

In which case can you not also postulate that to make an inanimate object have beauty is in fact a form of illusion. To be clear, good design is all about illusion.

I didn't take any offense. I hope I haven't given any either, but I doubt it. Not necessarily to you, but to others.

Conviction is not half the battle: it's nothing if you don't also have the answers. Plenty of stupid people have loads of conviction without any insight, and we call them either madmen or fanatics.

If I come across as a little too aggressive in my posts on this subject, it's because, like I said, I have been involved with it for close to a decade now, and have seen every bad argument under the sun on it, a thousand times over. I can probably write a script that counters any argument you guys can come up with on this subject. Or a random argument generator than can make your arguments for you.

It might seem arrogant of me to say this. But isn't it more arrogant for you to pretend you know what art is, while it is plain you haven't read anything on the subject?

In conclusion: that link, and you can thank me afterwards.

Or beer-holder, depending on one's current circumstances.

Good design for ART, not for CARS or stuff that we use to actually get stuff done.

I find that ironic considering sculpting is art.