ok really now? (Amphibious Dox, naval balance)

I can beat absurd a.i. without building a single dox, not sure how they stack up in multiplayer tho as Ive not played in a while....

That doesn't sound like fun admittedly...

Pretty sure they're talking about 1v1s. I don't play team games often so I don't have much to go on there, but its definitely not like that in the ffas I've played.

This is easily the entire reason we have a balance thread.

But I do agree. The numbers are ludicrous on naval. Adjusted numbers, makes it feel completely normal though.

Accept for roles, naval needs teleporter-equivalent and a transition unit. Especially teleporter, to do multiplanet with naval-only or 60% naval on each planet, you need teleporters to transfer armies between bodies.

The whole "dox are amphibious" approach is utterly stupid.
Why not have a dedicated amphibious bot/tank as a specialized unit and leave the early naval game to... well, naval.

The unit roster is thin enough as it is - giving one unit reign above all by making it amphibious and able to shoot air when other basic units can't basically makes any other unit useless.

The dox shooting air isn't a problem, they are terrible at it.

one tree

one ring

Luckily, it's also completey false. If you want to play a 1v1 where you can only build dox and I can only build tanks I'll win on all but really huge maps. And that's not boasting, I'm not that good. People who think dox are the best unit, or the only unit people build don't know how to play the game (no offence intended)

Naval reallly does need some love though, I always loved playing with naval in SupCom, and even get a thrill from seeing the Leviathan's shotgun shells in PA, but it really just isn't viable at the moment.

I'm sorry but i don't think you would be able to beat me using tanks on a normal map like Systeem X, given that all spawns are fair.

That's why 1v1 is stale and you can ask all the top players, they would say the same thing.

As for FFA it's more balanced for the two.

You should set this up, Bots VS Tanks showdown so we can all see for ourselves. A trend one way doesn't mean it's because of OP but because some/the top players do it, que copycats/lack of imagination[?]. I think the tank user can hold the t1 bots off long enough to push out the t2 eco and then its game-over bots[dox]. Would like to see what goes down for real however.

I dunno, I'll freely admit I'm not the best 1v1 player by a long shot (and if I played you you'd wipe the floor with me most likely regardless of who was using what), but I still think tanks win out against bots in all but early game. You're not seriously saying top players build nothing but dox, cos that's what the earlier guy was suggesting.

Obviously saying tanks only vs bots only isn't really useful since they fill completely different niches, but both see lots of use.

Then at least they should make Ants able to shoot air aswell. Either every unit or none, the rest is completely arbitrary and against the WYSIWYG principle.
Besides, once a Dox blob has reached a certain size they can pose a danger to intercepting bombers.
I love the idea of every unit being able to shoot air (well besides Infernos maybe...), but Dox just do too many things at once right now.

Again, it is not about dox beat tanks or dox beat naval. The only thing about balancing the dox is what kind of unit uber want. If they want a unit can do multiply role, the dox is good as it is right now. If they want the dox do a support role, they are way to good for now.

That is what I said before, there are different way of balancing things. If we don't know which way they are balancing it, we may not understand the propose of certain things(the dox is a example).

That's a silly thing to say, of course if you have a metal advantage they win. But equal cost armies of dox and tanks, head on confrontation? I'd put good money on the tanks winning every single time.
You don't even need good micro to win with tanks. Just start them moving away as soon as the dox are in range and keep your infernos at the front.

Dox are *essential* for effective raiding. Air is also good but very much a numbers game. That said for actually making your final move I prefer tanks.

I don't think the issue is that dox > all (dox on their own loose against someone using a mixture of bot / air / vecs imo), but that dox *are the essential starting build*. The games I've played against you killer you yourself use a dox + air combo. I've also seen a few players focus almost 90% on air- which can be countered with tanks.

The problem is however that a starting build that *includes no bot factories* is pretty much doomed in my experience.

As for dox being amphib, well they can't fire once submerged so with large expanses of water they're just sitting ducks for ships. The problem with them in that context is more that most maps only have shallow water (and dox with it's torso *above* the water line can fire). My main issue with naval in fact is not related to dox but how it compares to T1 air, you can kill a leviathan in 1 pass with 2 t1 bombers (i mean really?!).

That's a fair assessment, they are pretty much essential early game (while the other T1 bots see almost no use except for bomb bot snipes).
There's so many problems with naval balance, and mechanics, at the moment that it's hardly even worth picking out specific examples, the whole lot is shot to hell.