T2 timing viability

Let's compare the tank to the kestrel
Speed increase. Upgrade
Flying. Upgrade
ROF increase. Upgrade

As you can see, doing something better is not specialized, it's an improvement. An upgrade. You'll have to try harder than that.

Didn't work, did it?

Kestrel behaves entirely different, you can't even use it in the same way you would use a tank. They are hard countered by antiair and they have an entirely different movement and fire pattern. Plus they also lack certain abilities, like being able to be teleported.

Not everything in this game is a straight upgrade, some units are actually just different. Others like Ant/Leveler, T2/T3 Laser defense, Pelter/Holkins and alike however clearly are. For some of them, additional micro is required due to some weird combinations of attributes on the upgraded variants, but essentially they fulfill the same roles.

I think you missed the point .

I was pointing out the ridiculousness of the comparison done by the person i replied to.

But you can't deny he's somewhat right. Slammer is an upgrade over any other T1 bot, and Leveler is a clear upgrade towards the basic Ant. Especially when you are counting in the additional micro required to compensate for the crippled turret turn speed (hint: only turret turn speed, but not unit turn speed was tuned down!) which suddenly makes them on par.

Let's not work off 'intuition'. Just because the leveller looks like a bigger tank, does not mean it is an upgrade to the tank.

Here's a question to ask, is it better to use only leveller? Or both leveller and ant?

Depends entirely on the situation

How about if it was the T1 factory that could build a T1.5 unit? Something that was too expensive to build straight off the bat and easily defeated in low numbers, but given time to amass them they would decimate other T1 forces, thus meaning that an upgrade to T2 would be necessary to counter them before they reached critical mass?

If this unit was longer range than any other T1 unit and had a high rate of fire with low DPS, this could potentially fit the bill.

A T1.5 artillery or mobile flak/missile launcher could be nice, especially a heavier AA unit for invasions.

Not all that ridiculous if you can't seem to figure out the difference between upgrade and specialization, nor can you see a difference between a ground and air unit, nevermind support/suppressive fire vs front line direct fire. If you had one Leveler for every ant your opponent had, you'd never lose. In a 1v1 it's an upgrade. Leveler would be perfect for a base razer if it had a slow turret speed, kept it's good damage, decent movement / slowish turning speed. That's not too much different from what it is now, it's simply doesn't have enough high bias towards one stat and low bias to another to call it specialized. It's on the borderline, whether you can see it or not.

I think elodea is right. I think that the production cost of t2 buildings should be lower in order to make it more viable or at least accessable in earlier parts of the game since you won't play long in a 1v1.

The question should be: Can i afford building t2 units with my current economy?
and not
Am I able to build a t2 building before the enemy destroys me with all his t1 units?

I also think that at least some t2 units should have much more hitpoints and have more power in general, but also have a higher production time and metal cost.

Imagine a battle of two tier one armys, one with slightly less units but one, strong t2 tank in the background. The one with the t2 tank should win if the player manages to keep it alive. And the opponent has to decide whenether he should try to take out the t2 tank with, lets say a bomber attack or bom bots ore something like that or if he retreats and also tries to get out t2.

How I mention in another thread about units and unit viability, Uber should make more units viable and one way to achieve this goal is to make t2 more viable.

All in all I think that most of the points elodea made are right

He is right. My main interest is single planet, competitive 1v1 games, and as such I feel like I barely play the game. Orbital and t2 are just huge no-nos and the current balance of the game seems to favour Dox rushing.

Seems like a shame.

You do realize that there are at most 4 direct(ish) upgrade over t1 t2 combat units right? Stingry, Bluehawk, Gil-Es, Kestrals, Hornet and Shellers are distinctly not upgrades of anything in their line. Nor are any offensive orbital units that are upgrades. I don't see the problem with the 'upgrades' that are there either, Slammers, Levelers and Vanguards all have distinctive roles.

You do realize that just because it has a different weapon doesn't mean it is magically a different role, right?

Levelers are ants but with more HP and one shotting everything.

Vanguards are infernos that don't kill boom bots.

Slammers are dox that can kill things.

What do you mean???? What is a blue-hawk an upgrade of? A Gil-E? a Sheller? etc.. these are totally separate units, only Levelers, Slammers and Leviathans and Vanguards are direct upgrades, if that.

Sheller is upgraded grenadier.

In any case, just because they aren't upgrades doesn't mean that they're not better. If you could choose between 10 Gil-Es and 100 dox, I'd bet that you'll choose gil-es. Their cost is their only issue.

Grenadiers are in the same role as Shellers and Bluehawks. All three of those units are designed to fire projectiles over great ranges and arc over walls. Exact same purpose.

Our units do not have much diversity.

Gil-Es are pretty similar to Grenadiers, Shellers, and Bluehawks.

So let's list out all of the T2 units.

• Leveler – direct upgrade of the Bolo
• Vanguard – direct upgrade of the inferno
• Sheller – direct upgrade of the Grenadier, and same role as the Grenadier, Bluehawk, and Stingray
• Slammer – direct upgrade of the Dox
• Advanced Combat Fabrication Bot – direct upgrade of the combat fabrication bot
• Gil-E – very similar to the other long range units, but arguably specialized
• Bluehawk – same role as the grenadier, sheller, and Stingray and very similar to Gil-E
• Hornet – exact same role and setup as the Catapult and Bluehawk, it just flies (not specialized)
• Kestrel – specialized
• Leviathan – direct upgrade of the Orca
• Stingray – pretty much the same unit as the Bluehawk, and fits the same role as the Sheller and Grenadier (fire projectiles over great distance and over walls) – granted it does have anti-air, so that's nice

This is not a very diverse or specialized unit roster. And I'm not even mentioning the issues with Naval.

The unit roster in Planetary Annihilation simply leaves a lot to be desired.

I think your definition of "direct upgrade" is so wide as to be useless.

The Vanguard has AoE and is better than handling hordes of units than the Inferno, but is inferior at taking on Boom Bots.

The Slammer is almost half the speed of the Dox and the same speed as a tank, meaning it doesn't raid anywhere near as effectively as the Dox. However, it has a torpedo (while the Dox has no underwater weapons) and is more than capable of taking on a navy.

etc.

Just because the unit is ever so slightly different doesn't mean that it's not an upgrade.

Your examples also illustrate one of my points quite well: there is little to no unit diversity. Most of the units are pretty dang similar.

You also need to talk about roles. What is the role of the Inferno? To get in close, normally bases, and deal high damage at a short range. What is the rile of the Vanguard? To get in close, normally bases, and deal high damage at a short range.

Just because one is better at destroying one specific unit while the other isn't, doesn't magically mean it isn't an upgrade or is suddenly diverse. (Especially since any player slightly competent keeps boom bots far away from infernos.)

Can you honestly tell me that because the Inferno is better at taking out boom bots that our unit roster is diverse?

And since the slammer is more like a tank in terms of speed the unit roster is now diverse?

You need to think about roles, not specific scenarios or slightly different stats.

@Brian the units are wildly different, and direct upgrades from other unit types in other factories???? what the heck do you even want anyway? You're way, way, way too hung up on this; The units are specialized as they are. And as for lumping the grenadier in with shellers and blueahawks... completely different purpose and use entirely. That like saying a howitzer is the same as a guy with a belt of grenades... (thats not a slighly different weapon btw, thats entirely different) or maybe you are. Fact of life, everything is arguably a direct upgrade of something....